Julian: Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have Priyom Sarkar, founder and CEO of Asanify, a gamified HR and payroll platform for small businesses and small business owners. Automated statutory compliances. Priyom, thank you so much for joining the show. I'm really excited to chat with you about your background, your experience, not only what you're working on, but what you previously worked on, because I think there's a lot of insights that I'm selfishly excited to, to learn from, but I think our audience can really have a lot of amazing takeaways.

So again, thank you much for joining the show, but before we get into all of that, what were you doing before you started at Asanify?  

Priyom: Hi, Julian. My pleasure to be here. So before Asanify I in my last gig I was heading in national ad sales for Viacom India's video stream platform called Food. Yeah, we had about one 15 million users when I left, and a little bit after that also, I was also heading subscription business for a large player, one of the largest video stream platforms in , which also had about 300 million monthly.

Just before that I also helped launch the 4G internet ecosystem for India's largest private telco firm reliance. And as such, before that, I'm a software engineer by training, and I also done my mba in about 2010.  

Julian: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Well, what got you to, to, you worked on such products that really had a, a broad outreach for people who needed either access or, or information kind of easily given to them, whether it was the 4g you know, service or it, it was OTT platforms which is you know, which is I, I can't remember the acronym, but it's on the, or the dots.

Over the top. Thank you.  

Priyom: Oppos. Over the top media through the wire, which is television. Standard televisions.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So what keened your interest into services like those that were very broad reaching. Mm-hmm. , you know, you weren't really selling. I'm sure there was a lot of B2B components to it, but it really does affect your consumer and your user base a lot.

What got you excited about those opportunities at that time?  

Priyom: Right? So, of course for India, which has about 1.3 billion people with general Telco reach of over 800, 900 million people. So the whole aspect of that huge scale and connecting all of India at that scale was a amazing experience with 4G, of course 2G, three and then 4G and India is a very unique economy in that we did not have the PC revolution and directly went to mobile right from, you know, television to straight to.

So, very rarely will you have seen in most people, you know, houses having pc. We just straight away went to mobile phone and then within, you know, a few years directly jumped into Fortune. Now almost like we are one of the biggest you know, data gurs in the world. And as such, it was a very, very seamless journey for me because from, you know, core telco and infrastructure and I was heading, you know, planning for the entire launch for about two, three years.

We planned. The investment of about, you know I think it's probably around 20 billion of investment in the infrastructure for the rental company that I was part of. And post that one of the biggest beneficiaries, of course, is video streaming platform because video demands possibly the most bandwidths across all other use cases of 4g.

And certainly from, you know, people who are paying very low for ad supported televisions in a standard, we had about eight, 700, 800 million people who were on television you know, television sex, transporting them, you know, from traditional forms to a video swimming platform and doing it in a very engaging and very, very seamless way.

That was a amazing journey. And of course, I, that 4G revolution really helped and laid the groundwork for the. Level of ecosystem development. And thus, and you know, in India last five, six years, certainly there has been this two, three major transformation. One, there was a major tax revolution in India where in the entire indirect taxation went away from individual statewise, two country wise tax, it's called gst.

And from gst what happened was everyone was supposed to do accounting online. That was the, you know, major strike one for the overall tech and FinTech revolution. That followed by, you know, 4G launch, which forced people to just be online for, you know, doing everything. And then obviously it came covid, which forced people to do HR online, which is, you know, one of the reasons that we started with ASFA because there was just no other way to not manage people, but online.

And that really helped, helped in a very, very strong one that was possible. The strike three. Growth of the entire HR and, you know, FinTech market around people's management, you know, all over the world.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I, I have, I have so many follow up questions for, for that experience. One of 'em is being, how was being that you, you've worked in both, you know, US markets and, and in India markets where, Right.

Where do you think the benefit of going directly to mobile. For technology or for maybe direct to consumer technology or advertising, I can see that there's mm-hmm. Probably so many layers to having, you know, not go through the web, which kind of has a filtration system that either uses algorithms to cater certain information or how Google uses mm-hmm.

SEO to have, you know, spiders that attracts certain pieces of information to you. What, what are the advantages that you've seen and maybe disadvantages as well of going directly to mobile.  

Priyom: Right. So India's a very unique market in that some of the things that, you know, people from US or UK maybe most of the European markets will take for granted is, say, a space in your mobile phone.

Like almost every, you know, mobile phone user, especially iPhone user, will have at least 64 gb, if not 1 28 gig and so on. But in India it's mainly an Android market, which was the, you know, Google for market. And not only is ours, for example, Android has about 9,600. In across the different phones. YouTube itself supports about 3000 types of specs.

So YouTube itself, being a gold product, does not support all of them. So the difficulties in making apps that, you know, work across this different you know, kinds of makes, that's number one. The bigger problem is, I said most of the small you know, small smartphone are very low spec smartphones sell for about, you know, $50.

And as such, what happens is the main compromise people used to do, you know, especially early, is in the space. And that space limitation resulted in extremely high churn for almost all the apps. So for, you know, when we launched our video swimming product, one of the biggest challenges was because people used to run out of space.

They used to delete the audit apps and install a new app. So we had to overcome that in a challenge which is unforeseen across the world because in most. People will not typically, you know, let go of an app you know, just because they need one more app. Yeah. So what we did was we launched something now, which is pretty commonplace, a Google technology product called Progressive Web App.

So we, you know, as part of Viacom India's which is, we might have heard of Can Plus and other products that Viacom has in us like MTV and all this big brands that are there. So for India, we had the similar launch called Vut, the brand name. So we were the world's first video progressive web app.

And as such, we want for media. The biggest ever, you know, international award is called International Broadcasting Convention. It's held in Amsterdam. So we won the best invention of the year award in, in the world of media all over the world. You know, for that is even ut had not the, not. Video PW before Wood launched it.

Yeah. So with that, what happened was PWS basically, if, of course you might be aware, but for those who are so that we are, we are on the same page. What happens is you can store a small copy of the system or book market on your you know, on your homepage, on your mobile phone. And it almost, you know, acts exactly like I can have just that it is.

Gonna store so much data. You can book market, you can cash it, the speed goes up and people won't have to, you know, let go of that. So instantly our usage went up. 70, 80% retention was, you know, up by a hundred, one 50%. And, you know, the adoption really improved for a market like India. So it's always, you know, obviously we, we have to listen to the customers and have our ears very close and, you know, just coffee pasting a formula that has worked in another country never works.

That that's what I, when we launched.  

Julian: Yeah, yeah. No, it's incredible. You know, you go, you explained the founder journey that is, is very, very common is, you know, if you try to solve a specific problem from the inside out, you're not gonna necessarily have a lot of positive results, whether it's adaptation of your product, you know or, or if it's like the usefulness, you know, you'll have a lot of churn.

But when you listen to your customers and really see what their needs are and work around the technology either to find creative solutions or to find ways that are in. You and, and connect the problem to the solution then becomes, you know, a, a really you know, adoptable and, and exciting product.

Mm-hmm. And, and you can see a lot of success from that. Moving, moving into, you know, a sonify and, and what you're working on now and maybe even just previously in your experiences, where do you get the insight to go after? And I don't, I don't know if it's, whether emerging markets or, you know, technology that is for all intents and purposes is disruptive or innovative.

You said that, you know, before the way the tax system was, it wasn't kind of a, a universal tax, you know, system that made everybody do their accounting online and businesses included I'm sure. How do you kind of have the foresight to see what's out in the market? What's the need? Where do you look towards or what is your experience on gaining that, you know, I would say, I would say it's, it's a head up or leg up on the conversation.

Mm-hmm. To really understand what people need and how to define technology around serving that, that need. Where, where is your thought process? Where do you look towards your information? Where is your experience lead you to, to go in these directions?

Priyom: Sure. So, I mean most of my career, I've worked in really large companies.

I started my career with you know, Pricewater, pwc, one of the largest audit firms in the world. Yeah. 200, 300,000 people all over the. Reliance, which was India's largest private employer, a hundred thousand people you know, plus Viacom also obviously globally. It's a huge organization. What happens?

And then, you know, my own experience was with my own family. My, you know, father runs a small manufacturing unit, 50 odd people. And what happened was for a small payroll tax issue, it took about two years of his life to clear that up and unimaginable distraction. If you're running your own business, that you have to often visit a tax office and clarify with all this p.

The biggest difference I realized working in a large firm and a small firm is the lack of a support service. Because in a small company, you will not be able to devote enough budget to hire a finance person or an HR person. So founder typically, or a, you know, promoter or a small business owner has to manage everything.

All the support services themselves or the team of founders that there are. So the problem is not just in managing, the problem is in prioritizing what to do because obviously you are here to build a business to sustain and even in some cases, to justify your existence if you, unless you are product market fit, unless you've achieved product market fit.

You won't know, you know, whether you are gonna to survive or not. And there, if there's so much distraction, then you know, you are not in a position to, to be able to justify your existence. Yeah. That is where I felt there has to be something simplier easier. And that's where we came up with the whole idea of Asanify Asanify the word actually in Hindi, one of the LinkedIn languages means easy.

So the idea, Yes, simplify and make it easy for people to focus our, you know, founders to focus on building their business. Specifically we wanted to tackle two aspects to this, that every single business needs to hire employees and pay them of. You know, obviously no employee will work, you know, for free forever, at least.

So if you have to hire such people and pay them, The process is so difficult in almost all countries of the world that there's so many laws to take care of. So you just wanted to build a system where with one click everything can get done. And you know right from the time you hire them to the time someone gets the money.

And with Clear India, like, and you know, Albert Einstein said that taxes the most difficult thing in the world, and that holds true for almost all countries. So knowing, having a, you know, clear and transparent system. So that the business owners can focus on building their own business. That was the you know, key motivation for, for this launch.

And eventually we realized we were not just solving the problem of, you know, paying people, but the problem started even before that, for a small brand. And, you know, I was part of some big brands via, these are like extremely, you know, top very, very attractive employer brands. But for a small company to build the improv brand is also very, very, So how do you differentiate yourself?

So having a say, for example, having a nice carriers page. So software also helps, you know, people do that ability to have your own personal career page, very, very personalized, completely with your, you know, brand love and so on. Ability to have a formal offer letter. Many people, people, you know, many times people do not have time to even an awful letter.

Yeah. So having such, you know, very, very simple, you know, things, simple things that people take for granted in a larger organiz. We wanted to provide that for small organizations that can then, you know, differentiate, attract the best people and engage them by, you know, paying them properly on time and providing other.

Benefits that, that are, you know, possible in today's world.  

Julian: Yeah, w was, was a lot of the information just not shared or available to small businesses? Do you talk about, I think one thing's important is like contracts, you know, a lot of founders, right? Maybe if, if they haven't had the experience or smaller companies didn't have a formal process, they, there's certain language that you need to have to have a formal offer letter.

Absolutely. And a lot of things like you man, like you mentioned, that will give you con, that will give, you know, people who are seeking out your employment. And to choose you versus something else that seems a little bit more safe and structured and, and maybe reliable. But you know, a lot of that is just with the, the maturity of what the system looks like.

Is, is it just lack of access to that information? Is it, you know, maybe it's information overload. There's too much out there. And how do you disrupt that? Is it, is it through kind of catering and optimizing and creating, creating an operation around, you know, what it takes to bring on employees, pay them, and, and continue the cycle?

Priyom: Right. So I think the biggest thing is fear . Everyone fears being wrong, right? So I mean, one of the common refrains we hear is people are afraid, Is this the right salary structure? Is this a compliant ally structure? Because everyone reads. That one letter from the income tax department asking them to show up and, you know, testify why they did or did not pay.

You know, the employees, the right pay and you know, liberal laws are com you know, difficult in all, you know, possible countries and in many cases that information maybe there's somewhere, but it is not very easily accessible. So having a very, very transparent system, which, you know, Julian, you pointed out correctly, right?

Having a transparent system, having everyone able to access not just information, but also experts. So we also have expert panels and we also have a concierge. That, you know, can help people, you know, structure the salaries in the way, which is compliant per state because India, like in most big countries and us, et cetera, the, the laws vary by state.

So it's a very complicated system. There's no one rule fits all. You know, as far as salaries and pay structure is concerned. And also, you know, it's not just the calculations and the compliance, but also the filing and the, you know, the keeping track of all the changes. Because even it's not static. All the regulation keeps changing almost every.

So someone has to ly think about this, and a startup founder has enough, you know, problems in their head in any way. Not, not, not to, you know, keep in touch with all the regulatory changes that happen across states, across, you know, labor division. So it's just too much distraction to take care of a business, especially when you're starting out.

So that, that's what we wanted to focus on and help them build a better business, provide an empower, you know, empowered employee base, which. Reinforces the ability to survive and thrive in, in, in today's economy.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. One, one thing that I'm super curious about when working in a service and, and, and with the technology that, you know, has to maintain kind of level of service to cater to their audience, but also technology and build it to, to be, you know, you know, something that, that is useful and also continues to add features is how do you define.

Or kind of check in with, with the business on when to invest in technology and engineering and, and focusing on that versus which I'm sure you have the issue of investing in service. You know, whether it's customer service onboarding clients that. Things along that nature. How do you counterbalance or how do you manage the seesaw of mm-hmm.

you know, investing in technology versus service and, and also maybe, you know, compliance officers that make sure that you're up to, up to date in, in regulations. How do you balance out and when, and choose when to focus on which aspect of your business?  

Priyom: Right. I mean, one of the biggest possibly, possibly the biggest challenge for from the technology standard of a startup is, What features to build, but what not to build because there's just so much to do, right?

The prioritization is one of the biggest challenges, right? So we've always struggled and, you know, thought deeply about that. So, and of course it has to be balanced with a need for speed, because unless you build things fast, you know, it's always very difficult. So our challenge has always been to listen to customers and our, our, we have always, you know, wanted to do that very, very diligently that what our customers want and what our ideal customers want.

Because there's always a challenge, especially when you're starting out, the initial people you make, you get men, ideal customers. So eventually, whatever is your ideal customer. Not everything people say, for example, if you only have free. Not everyone would eventually pay. So one of the key decisions we made is to charge from day one.

So we had revenue from the very first customer we serviced. We did not want to have a long free, you know, model and, and then charge because for us, because we were a small team and we boots start for a while, we, you know, survived around money for a while. We wanted to just make sure we are serving the right set of.

And, you know, developing things that matter to our, you know, larger set as we grow. The other point that you brought out was very very interesting no doubt about service versus the product. So, making itself so obviously is our base big challenge. And we want to in, you know, for HR and for payroll, and I'm sure for many almost all software onboarding is the biggest challenge.

And we have, you know, tried to optimize it from day. One of the key things we realized is, cause you know, for us, most people, data exists in Excel sheets or manually. The onboarding becomes a big challenge. And some of our competitors taking about two, three months to onboard sometimes, you know, years passed for a full visit, you know, large company implementation of a software.

So what we wanted to do is we challenge ourselves to do it in a day and we invested in a lot of integrations. We, we tried to fight Excel and tried to change people's behavior. We realized changing where, especially when it's a new software is very. So we then built an Excel Plus approach the UI and everything.

We made it similar to Excel. So people will very easy, you, you can easily cut, copy, paste your data from Excel and manage it very easily. So it seemed familiar to them. And secondly, we realized that unless we provide a service aspect, even then, even if a customer wants to do it, because our customers will say a founder who is extremely busy with many, many things.

So sometimes he may not have the ability to. So in many cases we provide free, you know, one here services and free onboarding service because we realize unless we can onboard immediately and in a fast way, one of the biggest determinants is onboarding, actually too long-term survival. We have studied now data for the last two, three years that unless onboarding was done fast in a and in a very meaningful way, and unless a customer sees value, The longevity of the customer really, you know wins away.

And we, I mean, I learned by trial and why I learned by failure, because initially we said that unless you, you know, we, we will charge for the onboarding services, extra service. But we realized some, some of those customers did not see the value because they could not do it somehow. Yeah. And then we thought that unless the product is developed enough to meet the requirements, let us provide services so that then the product catches.

The other benefit of providing a lot of service in the early stages is we learn, we are you. In many cases, we are operating as a C to HR for some of the small companies. Now even we are in literally their shoes. We are not literally figure it be their shoes. We realize that you know, you are what, what are the key challenges they face as a result or software becomes better and we are able to, you know, make nuances and the features that much more attuned to the needs of of  

Julian: this.

S Yeah, no, that's brilliant on how you, you, you created kind of an experience that was something very similar to, to a lot of what these companies. We're using, but with, you know, I, I, I think just new capabilities and, and keeping track of information, but  

Priyom: using that wanted to keep in sync with the mental model.

Sorry to interrupt. Yeah. I just wanted to highlight the mental model we wanted to align and then build on top of  

Julian: that. Yeah. Please, please go. Yeah, no, no, that, that's exactly true and I think that's, that's the, the best part of, of what Alfondo can do with something that is disruptive. Kind of, you know, it's a red ocean territory, but it's, it's blue ocean in terms of the solutions you were offering.

Tell me a little bit more about the traction. So you, you know, you've been working on the Sonify, you were bootstrap for a little bit, but now you've seen a lot of growth, a lot of success. You've added different layers to your service. Not only does it, you know, work on hr, on compliance and, and hiring people, but also getting through the whole process even with, with.

Adding it sounds like a job section so that you can really drive this, this top of funnel approach with your clients and be integrated in this whole process. How many customers do you have right now? What are you excited about in terms of the quarter to quarter growth? Tell me a little bit about your traction there.

Priyom: Sure. So very interesting thing about payroll systems specifically is the fact that it's very difficult to build trust when you are one startup and then going and taking care of the money that people are supposed to pay. So, and the other problem of not just payroll, but any enterprise system is the completeness because typically any, you know, business software needs a lot of, it's not like a simple consumer app.

Has just does, just does one thing. Well, so unlike the traditional you know, knowledge or thought in the, you know, in, in the market across startups that you have to move fast and so called break things, we really wanted to build a core product first fast, but in a very, very secure and safe way because it was money and we have, you know, done a lot of banking integration.

So we wanted to make sure everything goes fine. So for the first couple of years we just, you know built it in a way that people can trust and, you know, then we wanted to scale. So that scaling has come now. So for the first couple of years we had about a hundred odd customers. Now, about in the last year we have scaled about 10 x and every month we see about 15 to 20% growth.

That, that's what, where we are going, or by the end of the year we should be. Half a million to $0.75 million in ai. So that, that's where  

Julian: we are going. Amazing. Yeah. Congrats on, on all the success. And you mentioned a couple challenges that, that you faced early on and, and, you know, as, as a company who's working with other companies and managing money and assets and things like that.

But I'm curious on a, on a grander scale what are some of the biggest risks that sonify faces? .  

Priyom: So I, I mean, I, I classify risks in maybe four dimensions, regulatory, economic, sociological, and technological. So from a regulatory standpoint, for us, it's actually a boon if regulation becomes more complex because then you'll need a system to manage these things.

However, of course we need, the risk for us is we have to really keep, keep track of all the changes That's. The other thing is, say GDPR and other such privacy laws that makes maybe for a startup managing and you know, being compliant with all the privacy laws, extremely costly in many cases because of all our data and other requirements.

So that's one big risk from a economic standpoint. Of course, every company needs to pay their employee, so we don't see that much of a risk in demand. Every company has. Payroll system. From a sociological standpoint, we've seen that employees now start demanding not just money, right? Because FinTech itself has so much innovation has come, there's easy loans available.

Yeah. And so much other things you can do with the money. So our idea is not just to stop, so the risk that we see is people will just, it shouldn't become a commodity that I'll just, you know, go to the software just helps me get. The question also people can ask is, how, what do I do with the money?

Where do I invest? How do I make sure the money is appropriately spent? You know, and people want to know, especially youngsters working in startup, they want to know where to spend the money. So that is something that we want to, So sale, you know, things like early wage access and so on. So those are some of the things that we see from a technology standpoint.

Of course, people will still get money, but if say the web three and the blockchain disruption really takes hold the concept of money itself. So from a technology standpoint, how do you pay and what exactly and what currency do you pay? And whether it's money itself or you know, another form of currency that, that virtual currency or otherwise.

So those are some of the risks that we foresee. But we are trying to, trying our best in a way. Disruption is always good because then the startup can move fast and, you know, achieve. Success in, in that field. Yeah,  

Julian: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I, and I, I thank you for sharing all those. It sounds like you kind of have a lot of things on your plates.

Consider when, when building software like yours and a company like yours. But if everything goes well, and you mentioned some, you know, some kind of future milestones that you wanna achieve with, with these companies. But if everything goes well, what's the long-term vision for a sonify?  

Priyom: So our long term vision is to become like an everything store for.

Which means for employers and founders, everything that they need to manage the people, not just in terms of hiring and, you know, paying them, but say benefits and perks and so on. And even in most companies, payroll takes about 50% or more of the entire cost for at least 18 90%. So even providing working capital loans on, you know, back by payroll and so on.

So anything and everything that they need to manage people and, and overall works that that's from an admin and from a employer. From the employee standpoint, as I mentioned, that people need not just money. So payroll is not the end product. We've started with payroll. Yeah. We felt that once you get the money in the bank, how do you spend the money?

That is something that we want to explore in the long run. And for the employee, we want to provide, not just money coming into your bank, but where do you spend like setting, say recording ways in which you can pay your rent to your landlord. Setting up things like your life insurance, where you gonna invest.

In many cases, like in India, you have also tax. Depending on where you spend and invest your money, you can get tax breaks, which also implication on payroll. So taking care of anything and everything related to the whole flow of, you know, money coming from the employer to the employees, and then going beyond that.

So for everything related to work, and especially people management, hopefully our should be the platform of choice in the long run. That, that that's you know, something that, that we aspire  

Julian: to build. Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that's incredible and exciting to see that, you know, you, you. Looking to be involved in this whole experience of a founder's journey and really mm-hmm.

On the side that, that they shouldn't have to think. Too much about, right? It's all the things that are necessary and a necessity as they grow and scale. But really, like you mentioned, our big distraction, like, you know, your father's experience. You mentioned too, really the, the focal point of what they need to do as founders, which is acquire customers, build great technology, innovate.

Get customer feedback and really grow and scale their business through you know, that that focus versus everything on the back end. But selfishly, I always like to ask those questions. I know we're coming closer to time but Sure. What books or people influence you the most either earlier in your career, midway through or even now?

As, as a season.  

Priyom: I am a voracious leader. I do read books quite a lot from, I mean, maybe I'll start with people. As I said, you know, my father is an entrepreneur himself, so he has played a big role in not just the insight that I got and eventually launch. So this is about how he used to manage, you know, things and grew his company on a slightly grander scale.

I love reading books, especially, you know, corporate books. One of the, my all time heroes is Jack Wells Welch. I was ex CEO of G, took G from 20 billion to a two. Billion dollar conglomerate. One of his books was called, I Think, Straight From the Gut. I read one of I think when I just started working.

I had read that book and I really followed some of his practices of how to, you know, be humble as a leader, how to take care of your people and how to accept when you know you make mistakes. I remember one of his instances was he, one of his first jobs, he blew up a factory due to some, you know, mismanagement of technical.

But he never shied away from accepting the mistakes so that people knew that everyone can, but you have to learn and, you know, grow from there. The other book I really love is I think Jim Collins is good to great it, you know, studies, you know, companies which have succeeded in outperforming the markets for about 10, 15 years consistently.

What are some of the core things? He has highlighted that, and we've really applied some of those learning sources in our business. Other than that, of course, you know, I love reading programs notes you know, on blog. Of course XYZ founder, of course, the YC founder. And keep reading all this technological journals, et cetera, on my spare  

Julian: time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so many gems that, that you share with us, and I'm so excited to share this with my audience. Sure. And so amazing to see where, where the inception of the idea was and, and how you really interpret the needs of, you know, through experience or, or through you know, the conversations you have to.

Create technology that's adaptable and accepted and also innovative. And I think that that's something that a lot of founders think that they have a grasp on. But it's awesome to see your your experience acting on, on those things. So last little bit, I always like to ask my founders, where can we find and support your company, your business?

Give us your LinkedIns, your Twitters, anything that we can help support and, and be a part of a sonify and, and the future mission.  

Priyom: Sure. So website is Asanify.com. It's asa iy.com. And of course on LinkedIn you'll find us in as, Asanify and myself as pre, That's my LinkedIn handle and on Twitter, the same pre.

I'd love your support and love to know if we can be off using anyway. And otherwise just reach me on either Twitter, on LinkedIn. We'd love to discuss if any, anything of interest comes up.  

Julian: Fantastic Priyom. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's so exciting to share this with the audience and, and I'm definitely, I like to ask those questions about research because for selfish research to, to above my skills.

So you gave me some, some great notes here, but I hope you enjoyed yourself and thank you again for being on the show.  

Priyom: Sure, my pleasure. Thanks so much, Julian. Wonderful speaking with you today. Wish you all the best.  

Julian: Thank you.