Julian:  Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining the behind company lines podcast. Today, we have Nick co-founder and CEO of heirloom heirloom makes fast, safe and user friendly tools that make web three safe for brands, their customers, and their communities. Nick, thank you so much for joining our show. I'm really excited to chat with you and learn more about your experience, your background and, and what you're doing today with heirloom.

But before we jump into it, what were you doing before you started? 

Nick: I'm well, first of all, happy to be here with you, Julian, and I'm really excited to chat. Yeah, I think the it's a simple answer, although it's pretty unusual. I've spent my entire career in early stage startups. Either being the co-founder of them or being an early employee at them.

So I, I did a crazy thing and started a, a startup with a buddy of mine, right outta college. It went really well until the financial crisis of 2008, 2009 hit us. But you, you know, that's, I guess that's what youth is made for to be able to withstand stuff like that. I worked at [00:01:00] a great startup in Santa Monica that did not make it called pose, but that's where I met my co-founder Julian.

And got some great experience there. My background's in product design, so user experience and user interface design and I was head of product design there. I worked at a company called VI me which pivoted around a bit, but was eventually acquired by. I worked at a company called full screen, which got acquired by at and T I worked at a autonomous electric car company called Fairday future.

You might have heard of them some wild stories from there. But they, I POed a year or two ago. And I've been building companies with my co-founder Julian. Since 2017 or so continuously. So I've been been building a few different things, but heirloom is the latest and greatest thing.

And I'm excited to chat about. 

Julian: Yeah, man. I, I, I appreciate the background experience. I'm so interested to talk to individuals with a product background and, and founder with a product background because it's, it's a different insight into not only how people interact [00:02:00] with a certain product service or whatever they're building.

But they view that experience a little differently. Tell me a little bit about how product has kind of helped. I, I think, you know, in a positive way with the products that you're building and, and continue to. well, 

Nick: I think it helps a lot and we can dive into that, but in just to tease something that might be an interesting topic that I haven't heard talked about in a lot of podcasts or interviews, is that there are also ways that I think it hurts.

And so, and that's something that Julian, who's a full stack engineer. My, my, my CTO and co-founder, it's like a really hard one insight that we've had being entrepreneurs and founders over the last five years together. And I I'd love to talk about it with you briefly in case it helps anyone that's listening right now.

Yeah, please. When you're a builder, right. When you're a maker, when you're a designer, when you're an engineer you've got this really you've got this super power, right? You can take anything almost anything and you can build it. And that's amazing. Most people in the world can't do that. We Julian and I used to joke.

You could we could build [00:03:00] anything as long as like you slid pizza under the door, like give us a few weeks and anything you can imagine we can build. And that's true. So that's an awesome superpower, but when you can build any, anything it kind of leads to a bias that I see often in, in Julian and I earlier in our careers.

And I see it all the time in other founders, it leads to this bias. That you should build whatever you can build. And it also leads to a bias that it leads to a bias wherein if you're ever in a corner or if you're ever anxious or if you're ever struggling your first impulse is to just hack your way out of it.

And that's usually good, right? Like that's a really adaptive a really adaptive skill set in a lot of, in your career. You know, you kind of learn over time. Well, if I have a problem, I can just hack my way out of it. And when someone else is paying your paycheck, right? That often is either, it either ends up being[00:04:00] productive, or if it's counterproductive, you're not the person who's butt is on the line.

If you, if the stuff you've been hacking your way out of isn't very useful, but when you're the founders of the company, right, you can be in a corner. No amount of engineering and no amount of design can, can get you out of that corner. It's it's only going out into the world and talking to real users.

It's, it's only figuring out a tricky business model. It's only attracting resources either through selling a product, which is the best way of doing it or raising investment. Maybe those are the only way out of that corner. And so kind of going into a hole together and hacking on something.

Feels good. It gives you kind of the illusion of control, but it, it can sometimes be counterproductive. And so I just wanted to share that that's something that Julie and I were talking about the other day as like a pretty novel realization we've had, but there are of course ways in which having a product background is, is, is great.

It is a superpower, right? It, it you learn pretty quickly the [00:05:00] difference between something that's really working and something that's really not working. And that's a, that's something that to a mainstream audience is usually visual. But there are an awful lot of things that look pretty, that aren't really solving a problem.

And the prettiness of those products kind of masks that. Right? Yeah. So having a deep foundation in product helps you kind of understand systems and understand. Why something's working or isn't regardless of what it looks like. Right. Because yeah, a great, a great design system and a sub hundred millisecond response time can, can gloss over a lot of fundamental systemic problems.

And so that's, I think really, really helpful. Yeah. 

Julian: What, what corners some spares, what corners have you been, have you been cornered into that? You've had to hack your way out? Oh 

Nick: man. I, I would say the first thing Julian and I ever built was a real estate tech product called block mm-hmm

And if I'm being really honest with myself and with you, which I have no interest in being anything other than really honest[00:06:00] I think we thought correctly, We're really badass engineers and designers. We can do anything, right. We're super duper cool. And now we're gonna like quit our jobs and go change the world.

And we. You know, read all the books and watched all the YouTube videos and, and did all the Y Combinator you know prep stuff. And it became pretty obvious, like, well, we gotta go out in the world. We gotta talk to real people and solve real problems. You know, we got that far, which I think early in our career, we might not have gotten even that far , but I, if I'm being honest with myself, I think we.

We're talking to users as a way of just validating our preconceived notions. We're validating what we wanted to build. And we also didn't do it that long. Right. We did maybe a month of, of, of U customer discovery or user user research. And then we just went heads down and built for six months, right.

Because of course we'd already, we checked that off the list. We did the, we did the [00:07:00] user research and in the end we built the wrong thing and I think it's only. when your butts on the line, right? It's it's, it's, it's your, like, you're the boss. You can't blame it on anyone else. And it's your money that you're spending or even the money of family and friends.

Right. Which has like a lot more weight that in the end, when that gets wasted, it's a really brutal lesson to learn, but such an important one. And, and after that experience so far I've, I've not made the same mistake and, and I hope to not make that mistake ever again. You need to be talking to real people.

Yeah. All, all the time. Like if you've gone a week without talking to a real person that either is using your product or could be using your product, you're, you're doing it wrong. And and. That's just a really important muscle to keep going all the time. It's like right. It's like training for a marathon, right?

You don't just like, put your shoes on and go run a marathon. You gotta put in a mile or five or 10, [00:08:00] right? Yeah. Several times a week, as much as you can make time for in order to prepare for the marathon. And so often I see founders including earlier versions of myself, do the, do the startup equivalent of just like strapping your shoes on and like, all right, let's go run a marathon without doing any training and without building any of those really healthy, long term habits.

And one of those at least with software companies. But I presume with most companies that build. Physical products or services it's talking to your customers. It's just understanding what they're loving, what they're not loving, what problems they're perceiving you know, that your product doesn't yet address and that's just a lifeblood of, of, of 

Julian: any company I think.

Yeah, no, I, I love that a lot of founders have, have described that process on, on the podcast, which is, you know, continuing to talk to your customers. One founder. His cus like every individual customer, because it, it, for them, their product relies on that feedback and that understanding of what that customer [00:09:00] needs outside of communicating with customers consistently.

And often, what else has changed in your process now that you know, you've gone through a couple iterations of, of startups and are now working with HEOM 

Nick: I mean, a big one is deferring building, right? Deferring writing a line of code until. absolutely obvious and painful that you need to write that line of code and that I'm, I'm kind, I don't wanna totally reiterate what I just said, because that's a waste of your time, but just to call back to it briefly, right?

It's it's that it, it goes back to that phenomenon that I, the mistake I made before that Julian made before that I've seen so many other founders make of building something that's not totally, totally. Necessary and wanted. The latest version of that with heirloom is is, do we deferred building any kind of production code until we had our first customer?

And and that's like a [00:10:00] pretty long way to wait. Right? Of course we wrote code, we designed stuff. We did prototypes, et cetera, et cetera, proofs of concept. But it wasn't until someone said, yes, I will write you a. that we started staffing that we started writing real production code et cetera.

Unfortunately, I know you're gonna ask me to talk about the customer. We're not yet public about our first customers. I can give you some directional input, but that was the process that we pursued with heirloom. And so far it's working really, really well because it gives you that absolute clarity of like, why are we building this right?

Why, why are we writing this line of code it's in service of a real customer that has a real problem. That they haven't just said. Yeah, it would be nice if, you know, a Butler came and cleaned my shoes every morning. Right. But are they willing to pay for it and are they willing to pay more for it than it's gonna cost you to deliver it?

Right. Right. I think that's another really big insight that Julian and I have learned, one of our mentors kind of articulated it in a really fun way. Is that. In the [00:11:00] world, but especially in startups, there are so many there are so many thousand dollars solutions to a $10. Yeah. And you're really upside down, right.

Because all you and I could sit here all day and think of things that we'd oh, is it a problem that you know, that there's traffic in the world? Yeah. It's a problem. Can I be helicoptered everywhere all the time before I'm a billionaire and the answer to that is obviously no, right? Like the unit economics don't really work out.

That's just an example that popped into my head right now. But the idea here is that, you know, a lot of. Even with the best intentions of trying to build something really delightful for people, forget to look at it through the lens of not, not just can I build something awesome, but can I build something awesome that has a plausible path now or in the near future to being able to be consistently delivered to the people that want it for less money that they're willing to pay for it.

And and that's a really [00:12:00] seems so obvious, but it's something that. Took me a long time to really learn really rock. And it also is something that I, I look around me in the world and I see a lot of examples. Of, of companies that have had problems figuring that out. 

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that's amazing.

And I think you, you summed it up super well. What, you know, based on your experience, your in product, your, your building startups, you were doing real estate, I think you were still within the real estate realm in the previous company, but what inspired heirloom, which is now you know, helping communities on, we I'll let you talk about heirloom in more depth, but what inspired the idea of heirloom and what is the product.

Nick: Yeah, so Julian, my CTO and co-founder Julian inspired her inspired heirloom. If I'm being completely honest, I started off as a blockchain web three skeptic and Julian, before we were building companies together, he was the first engineer at a company called gem. That was recently acquired by block demon.

Yeah. And he [00:13:00] with gem, I mean, Julian was engineering. You. Private enterprise blockchains for huge health insurance companies, automotive companies, et cetera, like before Ethereum launched, right? Like this is like early days of, I mean, Bitcoin existed obviously, but this was the early days of, of, of the blockchain.

And so he's been a true believer forever. But I think he's always had a really healthy. Pragmatic engineering mind toward it, right? He's not like a Bitcoin maxi or anything like that. Right? He, he, he is I think has a very respectable, but still very bullish view that. If you abstract specific chains, specific tokens, specific currencies away, and you just look at this as a series of technologies.

These are really potentially transformative technologies and they hold the promise of completely changing the infrastructure on which we build digital products. And so Julian was like early. Right. He, he was getting that in 20 12, [00:14:00] 13, 14. And I was a skeptic up until a couple years ago. Right. And it was really through our partnership at our prior startup pocket list where, you know, just going out for a beer and talking about work, talking about life, talking about the news, right.

That he. That we started talking a lot more about blockchains and he really started to win me over to the promise of these technologies. And so Julian was the Genesis of, of heirloom and and also in a weird way, pocket list was the Genesis of heirloom, even though heirloom has nothing to do with that company, nothing to do with real estate.

I think one of the most profoundly awesome phenomena phenomen. of that experience together was that even through the crushing experience of you know, navigating a startup through COVID through lockdowns, through civil unrest, through the 20, 20 election leading teams through that, and ultimately not being able to survive as a company that, that period of time and shutting the company down and laying off the team [00:15:00] and, and telling our investors that we, we let them down.

Through all of that, right. Julian and I stayed closer than ever communicated better than ever. And I think the day that we filed the paperwork to dissolve the company, we were, we went out for lunch and we're like, all right, what's the next thing we're gonna build together. And that's just a really powerful and special experience.

That is really hard to fast forward, or it's really hard to hack, right. That co-founder relationship that's built on trust and communication. And so, you know, I, I owe so much to Julian. I obviously adore him. He's, he's a brilliant engineer, but also the best co-founder I, I could have ever found and I'm gonna keep building stuff with him.

As long as I. 

Julian: Amazing. Amazing. And, and what are you building now with heir LM? Describe the product a little bit for, for our audience to understand a little bit more in depth. 

Nick: Yeah, I think in order to describe the product which I can do very briefly, but I think giving a little bit of context for the [00:16:00] opportunity we see will make it make a lot of sense.

Sure. When we look at what web three is, right. It's obviously this huge thing that has kind of, first of all, it's a, you know, trillion dollar plus asset class basically. Blockchain based apps, right? Let's let's just use that generic term. Right? Bitcoin is a blockchain based app. NFTs are a blockchain based app.

So these are a trillion dollar plus asset class. You go to Thanksgiving and your, your aunt who's retire, who's retired is asking you about what NFTs are, right? Like these things have clearly broken. To the mainstream consciousness. However, right. If you look at some stats, right, fewer than 1% of people on the earth have a crypto wallet.

So we're still at the very beginning, we're at the top of the first inning here, and most people are not yet what we like to call web three native. Right? And so when we're looking at as true believers in these technologies, and when we're looking around and saying, how can we help the next billion people onboard into web.[00:17:00] 

we realize that the thing or our hypothesis is that one of the biggest things preventing mainstream users from adopting this technology, right? The next billion people is is a kind of economic or commercial. Answer to the question. Why should I that often in prior ways of technology has come from brands that they already trust.

Right? So a lot of people, right. That like I was, and probably you were, I'm gonna make an assumption about you, right. Were probably an early adopter of smartphones. Right, right. I'm I'm assuming that about you. Yes. I don't know if you wanna chime in, right? Correct. I was one of those guys that was like, you know, in my, in my early twenties, waiting in line at the apple store for the first iPhone.

Right. Yeah. And and we do that because that's in our DNA probably. Right. But what got my, what got my dad? Who's just smart normal guy, but he's not a tech early adopter. What got my dad to buy an iPhone. What was apps and not only was it apps, but it was apps [00:18:00] that allowed him to do obvious things like Instagram that allowed him to see pictures of his grandkids or or Uber that allowed him to get a ride to a restaurant rather than looking for parking.

It was also apps and experiences that were built by brands that he trusted before he became a smartphone user. Right. Yeah. So, you know, my dad really trusts. my dad really likes and really trusts Patagonia. Right. And being able to shop Patagonia's website from his smartphone and track the, the, the shipping in, in a, in a, in an app.

Right. These are the kind of very small incremental. Answers to the question, why that get the bulk of users to adopt a wave of technology? Yeah. And so when we look at that, right, we look at web three and, and, and I still see a lot of brands waiting in the sidelines. And we asked ourselves before we even started Helo.

What's gonna get Patagonia to be web three native. What's gonna get St. AOI [00:19:00] to be web three native. What's gonna get Chick-fil-A to be web three native here's one that recently got answered. What's gonna get Starbucks to be web three native. Well, the answer is polygons news from last week, right? That they're partnering on a on chain rewards and loyalty program.

These are the kind of things, right. That are gonna. My dad, right. Or my cousin, that's a, a mechanical engineer or my, my brother, who's a bartender. Right. That's what's gonna get them to come on chain. And so when we started talking to big brands, like the ones I've mentioned before, some of which we've talked to, and some of which we haven't yet, what we realized was a lot of these brands were waiting to enter the space because the tools.

To get into this space. We're too technically complex, obviously big companies like this, they have all the money in the world. It's not a question of resources. It's a question of lowering the barrier to entry, right? They, they don't wanna hire a, a team of solidity engineers, right. To [00:20:00] become web three native Starbucks is probably the exception.

And I would imagine polygons probably subsidizing that effort heavily. But. You know, what's Pete's coffee gonna do, right? They're gonna wait until the tools become simpler. So with that really long winded intro, right? Heirlooms building no code tools that let big brands experiment on the blockchain and deploy various digital assets without needing to hire an engineer.

Team. What does that look like? I'll give you a specific example. But I can't name specific names yet, but we'll be announcing some stuff soon. But we're working with several top 25 universities in the United States. To issue academic credentials on chain in order to build closer relationships with their students, their graduates and their alumni.

Right. We're also talking to a few companies in the FinTech space that want to, to put financial and legal compliance information on chain and give custody of it to the end user. Right. So these are examples of really [00:21:00] mainstream use cases, right? A lot of people have a diploma to a univers. But that are kind of they're certainly not useful in a web three context yet.

They're arguably not that useful in a web two context yet, right? Yeah. People value them highly, but if we can bring that data on chain and give the. Supply side, right? The, the issuers of these assets are credentials. Give them the tools to do this easily, right. Without having to hire a, yeah. A team of blockchain specific software engineers will, then that blows the lid wide open.

Right. And we can onboard entirely new swaths of. Consumers into web three to build those closer relationships with the brands that they trust and certainly Starbucks, which we are not partnering with. I'm sure you heard polygon is. But that's a great example of the stuff that we're gonna be rolling out, right?

Yeah. That's a great brand that a lot of people trust, a lot of people go there every morning, groggy eye to pick up a cup of coffee and a breakfast sandwich. And so what we're looking to do is to [00:22:00] accelerate the adoption of web three technologies by companies of that caliber. And those are those are the caliber of our first customers.

Julian: That's incredible. I mean, I, I. You know, the, the simplification of allowing people and, and how to kind of give them access to technology like this. I, I, I completely agree with because there are those little incentives that allow people and that trust that allows people to really break into new technology that they're unfamiliar with.

And that allows them to do slight little things that make their life either easier or, or, or or, or just like add less barriers to things like shopping or getting a ride somewhere. That's an incredible example and I love you know, where you're headed to in your direction. I also. It's funny. I was talking about this with my co-founder and I was like, I don't think NFTs.

I think that the, the use for NFTs, if I were to really boil it down is like having like government documents on there. Like my birth certificate is gonna be an NFT is gonna be a smart contract at some point, because. You know, it's non fungible. I can have it. I have a [00:23:00] specific key to it. It's completely valid.

And so, and, and there's no, like not only is it true and trusted but I can have it digitally, so I don't have to have a hard copy or something like that. And it could be accessible to me. So, you know, I, I definitely agree with with what you're doing, especially with diplomas and universities and it that's incredible.

I mean, I, I, I. 

Nick: Passionate about that based on what you just said, if that's what you're talking to your co-founder about, I am really excited for you to see what we start rolling out over the coming months. Amazing. I think you're 

Julian: gonna be really amazing, amazing, man. And, and I love to ask this a question because as you're building and iterating on new products, a lot of, you know, founders you, we always talk about the, the positive things and the outcomes.

And, and what's kind of ahead, but what are some of the biggest risks that your company faces today that, you know, either keep you up at night or, or a challenge that you continue have to go through, but what are some of those. If you were to give us some insight there. 

Nick: Yeah. My answer is gonna be honest, but it's not gonna be that exotic.

From where I sit, the, the answer is I think economic uncertainty [00:24:00] and and I would say also like geopolitical kind of turbulence. And that's something that. I think goes to the heart of why public policy and and economics are so important, right? Because these things are often viewed as abstract.

You know, a bunch of egg heads sitting in an office somewhere in New York or Washington DC, making these decisions that don't really affect too many people. And I just wanna say, like, I'm really passionate. I'm not gonna get political on you, but I'm really passionate about good governance and good public policy.

One because I know, and I think that it impacts the real lives of real people, but I mean, let's not even look ahead, let's look behind right? How many people's lives, even if we pause, and this is a huge thing to pause, right? Even if we pause with COVID of the health and life and wellbeing of people that got sick and died, which is horrible.

If we pause that, which is a bit, like I said, a big thing to pause and just look. How many people's [00:25:00] lives, businesses, careers were completely upended. And some of them some of them muddled through some of them lost their businesses. Some of them some of them thrived in that, in that, in that period of time.

But my point isn't to point fingers and say that X thing, or Y thing was done right or wrong, it's to say, it's, it is a exhibit a, of Y. Public policy and economics and all these things matter to everyday people, right? Because as a business person, I'm sure Julian, you can, you can commiserate with this, right?

Like you're focused on reaching your audience, building your brand, building a company, hiring employees, keeping them happy, keeping them focused. And that's a really hard problem. by itself in a vacuum. Right? Right. But once you layer on top of that fear or uncertainty around, is the economy gonna collapse?

Is Russia gonna drop a bomb on somebody? Is is a pandemic [00:26:00] gonna wipe us all out or keep us locked in our house or whatever these are. These make the creative act of building companies, building products, building families, building communities. Sure. All of these really creative and productive things that I really value.

It makes them so much harder than they need to be. And so that's I guess a really philosophical answer to your question, but yeah, the answer is uncertainty, right? Yeah. Is are things gonna stabilize and normalize when it comes to energy and inflation and war? I don't think anybody really knows.

Sure. And, and the kind of bound boundaries, the upper bound and lower bound of what the next 12 months look like for all of us is pretty unclear. Sure. And that can be pretty stressful to everybody. Yeah. So I would say like, that's it, but yeah, but otherwise, right. We're, you know, we are well resourced.

We're well funded. We are heads down and we are building and our hope and our bet is that. now is the time to build. Yeah. [00:27:00] And that in 12 months time, when we have a little more clarity and have a little more certainty and hopefully the world is a slightly more peaceful place, a slightly more healthy place that we're gonna be ready to just, you know, expand and scale like crazy.

But right now is very much that heads down. Let's, let's sharpen our noses and let's really build something valuable 

Julian: here. Yeah. If everything goes well, what's the long term vision for. 

Nick: Well, look I'm gonna, I'm gonna trot out a really nerdy analogy, but I think based on what I know about you and what I know about your audience, it might work

Imagine it's like 1995. Yeah. And which I, I was a kid, but like, imagine it's 1995 and you're you, you're at work. And you're convinced that email is the way business is gonna be done. Right. And you go to your boss, you go to the CEO and you're like, boss emails, the way we're gonna be doing work in the future.

And your boss says, great. What's it gonna cost [00:28:00] us? And how do we get it done? And your answer is, well, we need to go buy a $50,000 server that we need to install in our closet, and then we need to go hire an it team to manage it. So that we can send emails. Your CEO or boss would say, you're outta your mind.

We're we're not doing email right now. Right. But if you fast forward enough time, obviously email's a great idea. Obviously we all use it. And today, right. A child quite frankly, could set up Google workspace in three clicks in about 90 seconds for any. Right. So obviously the structural technology has gotten so easy to use that a proverbial kid could do it.

And our vision is making blockchain based technologies that easy, right. Basically building the Google workspace for enterprises of blockchain based technologies for web three. And it's gonna take a while to make it so easy that a kid could do it in 90 seconds with three clicks of a button. But that is what we are working toward, [00:29:00] right.

Because the easier and the less expensive and the less time consuming these technologies are. The more time you and I, and everyone out there have to live our lives and leverage these technologies to do what we really want to do. And that is express ourselves, build cool things, have meaningful experiences with our family, our friends, our colleagues at work, et cetera.

And that's kind of the big picture vision of what I see all technology being about. It's not right. The, the, to be topical, the dynamic island that is getting on an iPhone 14 pro that. At some point today getting delivered to me right. Is cool, but like my life isn't about the dynamic island. My life is about meeting up with my wife for a date night.

And I can glance at that dynamic island to see how far away my, my lift ride is. Right. Yeah. So to that end, right? I that's, that's what I see us building toward. That's a long term vision, a world where we can be a trusted infrastructure layer for enterprises of all size. To deploy these [00:30:00] technologies that are very powerful and build completely new experiences that none of us are imagin.

Now, and that's what makes us really. 

Julian: Yeah, no, I, I I'm, like I said, I'm really excited about where the direction of the company is going, especially with the uses of web three and, and the creative uses to get people to adopt it. Because you know, it, it, it starts from a really technical aspect. And then once you can kind of layer on this piece of I, I would, I would say accessibility then, and then it truly grows and expands.

You know, so I'm really excited about where heirlooms going and the direction. I always like to ask this question because it gives me some research and the audience as well, but what books or people have influenced you the most? 

Nick: Look, I think I love reading. I'm a big reader. Not that that's a flex.

I, I actually don't finish books all the time. But if I were to pick one, that's been, that's been on my mind a lot lately thinking in systems which is by Don what's her name? Hold on, let look this up, cuz I want to be able to reference this sorry. Danella Meadows. Right. So thinking in systems is one of those books that was written, I think a, [00:31:00] a long time ago, if I'm not mistaken, I'm going from memory.

But I think it was written in like the seventies or the eighties. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when I, when I read it, I was like, wait a minute, this is all. It was, it was the best version of what reading a book is, right? Yeah. It's like, okay. I am a, you know, a, a dumb animal walking around the face of the earth and I'm like bashing my head against rocks, like figuring stuff out by trial and error.

And like, maybe just maybe on a good day, starting to see some of the patterns in which things work. And then I go read this freaking book and I'm like, wait a minute. Like someone far smarter than me, a long time ago. Put really articulate words and offered really useful mental models to anyone that reads it.

And it was just one of those books that made me wonder what else am I missing? What else is locked away? And of all the other books I haven't read yet. And it made me. Almost sad at all the books. I'm not gonna be able to read in my life because man books [00:32:00] are magic. So I really recommend that thinking in systems it's, it's really really a powerful book about how systems work, how to understand how they fail, how to understand how they succeed.

And again, it's like for, for the uninitiated, if you haven't read it, right, it's, it's, it's all kinds of systems. She talks about biological systems. Yeah. She talks about. Old corporations that build physical machines. She talks about software. It's it's really wonderful. Highly recommend thinking and systems.

Julian: Yeah. No, thank you for that. And, and definitely putting that on the reading list. I, I plan to make a big list of, of all the ones that founders talked about. Haven't heard that one yet. So I'm excited to, to dive into that. Yeah. And add that to the list, but I know we're coming on time last little bit.

Where, what are your plugs? Where are your LinkedIn? How can we get apart and, and become a part of heirloom success and support the story of it and learn more about what you're doing and, and where it's gonna be in the future. What's your LinkedIn, your Twitters, all that. . 

Nick: Yeah, so you can go to our website, heirloom.io.

That's H E I R heirloom.io. And you'll find all our kind of social linked [00:33:00] there. We're getting a discord server stood up, so we'll link to it from the, from our website and you can join us. And we'd love for you to, to join the conversation you Julian and all of your, your listeners. My Twitter is at Nick DZA N I C K D a Z E.

And Yeah. We're we love talking. We love building community. Most of our best ideas come from other people come from our community. Yeah. Come from our customers. And so you know, we would love to, to keep the conversation going there and I'm excited for all the work that you're doing, Julie and your podcast is fantastic.

And. . Yeah, I'm just happy to play a small part in, in your journey as well. 

Julian: I appreciate that. Thank you so much, Nick, for being on the show, I'm excited to launch this episode. Not only that, but see where heirloom is gonna take you know, where you're gonna take heirloom and the different companies of partnerships gonna work with and how it's gonna influence, you know, my day to day I'm, I'm sure sometimes in a short short amount of time, but thank you so much again for joining the show.

Nick: Awesome. Julian, take it easy. 

Julian: Yep.