Julian: All right, everyone. Thank you for joining the behind company lines podcast. We are here with Matt Cutler, CEO and founder of block native. Block native is the leading real time infrastructure for monitoring pre chain data, optimizing gas spend and predicting transaction settlement. Matt, thank you so much for joining me on the show.

I know podcasts you're, you're a frequenter on podcast and I've listened to a few of, of your guest bots already, but I'm excited to ask some questions, dive into topics. We're interested in learning about and just to jump right in. What were you doing before you started block? 

Matt: Sure, great to be here.

Juliana, appreciate the opportunity to share some of my perspectives. I like to say glutton for punishment, depending on how, how can count. I've done seven or eight startups. So prior to block native my, my most recent startup was a mobile collaboration platform called collaborate.com. That was an early exit to Cisco.

And so me and my team moved from the Boston area where I'm from to the bay area and I was an executive. Cisco for about four years. I was in their collaboration business [00:01:00] unit. I became the first ever chairman of the founders forum there. I did a whole bunch of really interesting and unusual things while I was at Cisco.

But once I started to tune into web three really felt like this was the future. And, and I'd been an operator and builder in the web one oh area era. And so I really felt. How unusual that I would be an operator during the formative stages of the internet. And I'd still be an operator in the formative stages of web three.

And I knew I would never forgive myself if I didn't, if I didn't jump in. And I also felt like I learned a whole bunch the last time around and I wanted to apply all that learning. And as I like to say, make new mistakes this time, not repeat the old mistakes. So that was about four years ago. We've been building the block native platform continuously ever since, and it's been an amazing experience and, and really good fun, and at a pretty sharp contrast to working in a massive organization like Cisco.

Julian: I, I love that. And a couple questions that, that come to mind when you say, you know, first of all, you're part of the, in the web 1.0 build, and now you're part of the, the web three build. I, I heard you mention another podcast is there's some similarities between the two[00:02:00] changes in technology. So I'd love to hear what those similarities are that you see between the two.

Matt: oh yeah. I, when I really started to tune into web three, this is 2017. My immediate reaction was I've seen this movie before. It feels like the formative stages of the internet. So I often tell a story. So I was a student at an undergrad at MIT in the early nineties. And, and when I got to MIT there was computers all over campus.

They. It's called Athena clusters. They were Unix workstations. They were all connected to each other. They were all connected to other campuses and research institutions around the world. And your classwork was there and you handed in assignments and you could message people and play games. And I happened a little bit of fraternity that was across the river in Boston, from Cambridge.

And we had a Athena cluster in our fraternity house and it was just how life was. You didn't really think much about it. And you later learned. This is the internet mm-hmm and we had, you know, way advanced access, like, like, like really, you know, premier access to internet, internet technologies and not [00:03:00] just access, but obviously is a bunch of MIT kids, so we could build on it.

Right. And it took a few years to understand that not everybody else had this, that this was sort of special. And being inside the internet in the early nineties, it was really obvious that this was the future, that, that everything would work this way. But if you were outside the internet, it was not at all obvious because the internet was weird.

You know, you had these professionalized things like AOL and comper and prodigy that had editorial and rich content and gated communities and in the internet, which was a total free for all right. And really smart people say, look at this junk, nobody wants this, right. They want these like really well structured things.

But what people didn't really understand really appreciate in the formative stages of the internet is. It made content programmable and reduced the cost of distribution to zero. And when those two things happen, programmability and zero cost of distribution, literally anything becomes possible. And it turns out that the number of interests in content is effectively infinite, but the existing distribution channels like [00:04:00] magazines and newspapers and radio were, were had high cost of distribution.

So you had very narrow topics. Could only support a large enough audience. Right. And so we know what happened, right. That internet ate everything by the way, exact same thing happened again with YouTube and, and video. Right. Right. All the television folks said, look at this junk, that's YouTube, nobody wants this.

They want us 30 minute procedural dramas, right. With rich production quality. We know how that story wound up. And so, oh, and by the way, early days of the internet was super hard to get on. You know, how to have special hardware, a modem. You need to know what an I S P was. To know how to download a browser, to know what to look at on that browser.

And like, literally what you would do is your friend would say, Hey, I went get on the internet and you'd go into their house. And you'd like, spend the afternoon getting them set up. and, you know, fast forward to 2017 and, and web three is all the same thing. It's it's weird. There's all sorts of strange stuff out there.

It's hard to get set up. It's complicated. The usability's terrible. You have your one friend who's like sort of into it, who you say, Hey. Come over here. And can you set me up? Right. [00:05:00] Right. And if you're inside web three, you're like, well, this is the future. Right. It's so obvious. It's so superior in so many ways.

And if you're outside web three, it's not at all obvious. Right. And so in, in this regard, it feels very eerily reminiscent of, of the formative stages of the internet. And it's easy to romanticize, right? Like, Hey, it must have been great to build internet stuff in 19 95, 96, 97. Actually. It was, it was kinda.

Yeah, because everybody thought you were weird, right? Nobody wanted to talk to you couldn't get meetings. And when you did, no one was buying anything. Cuz they thought this stuff was super strange. Right. And it seemed, you know, when it all exploded in 99, then it seemed really obvious, but it took a long time to get there.

And I think we're seeing many of the same things happen. It's been a little bit different. Each one is its own unique thing. But you know, I think many of the same macro secular trends are at play at web three, as we're at play with web. 

Julian: What are some of the thank you for, for that, you know, in depth response, I love to learn a little bit of, you know, the background and how, how things are built and, and how it's conceived, especially when it's, when it's reminiscent of, of something that we're dealing with now [00:06:00] today.

But you said that, you know, when you're in web three, it makes sense that this is the future of the internet and technology and how things will be distributed, communicated financially. And, and you know, in terms of intellectual property as. What are some ways that you see or what, what I guess is the long term of web three?

What is it being built as now and where do you see it moving forward to in the near. 

Matt: so it's always hard because it's you know, it was hard to predict the rise of social media and the formative stages of web want. Right. But you could sort of see, so, you know, what's the big thing about web three, it makes value programmable, right?

Mm-hmm and so value can be money. Value can be identity value can be titles, you know, all these sorts of things, which up until this point, Haven't really been transformed by digitization. That the way that money and credit card works today is virtually indistinguishable than how it worked 25 years ago.

And so, you know, what, what web three technology represents is a fundamental reimagining of what value is and how value can move in [00:07:00] ways that don't require any, or don't involve centralized intermediaries. So you can move value around without anybody in the middle, basically keeping track of things or telling you can, and can't do things.

today. If I wanna do a credit card transaction, there's a centralized entity that has to make sure that I have a valid credit card and can authorize payment and does a whole series of checks before that payment goes through, even though it happens quite quickly. there's many actors who need to all give a green light before that happens.

But if I pay you in cash, right, there's there's nobody. I gotta talk to. I just hand you a $20 ability to take the $20 ability to move forward. What web three does is make all value exchange much more like cash transactions, where they're just their peer-to-peer with no intermediary and they can be of arbitrary size.

They can happen incredibly quickly and they can happen. Basically zero cost. I mean, there's some cost involved, but it has all the same effects. It, it, it makes value programmable and reduces the cost of distribution to approximating zero. And you know, it's funny like today, I, I make this statement, you know, look at this junk on [00:08:00] web three people.

People don't want all these crazy things. Crypto punks and board apes, and scams. What they want are structured financial products from financial institutions who they trust. You're like really? Cause I don't know anybody. Who's really happy with their savings account. Point oh, 1% yield, right? When you can do DeFi and you can get, you know many times that orders a magnitude, more yield than that.

And so this is part of what's happening and it turns out that just like you and I may have very different content needs you and I may have very different financial needs as well. And, and in the current regime, There's not enough granularity to service us with, you know, our unique requirements and unique capabilities.

But when you go into a world where values programmable, when you go into a world where distribution costs go down to zero, you can have an infinite number of financialized products that then financialized offerings that anyone can use and you know, can be wildly effective and wildly transformative. So, you know, one of the things I like to say is what's the definition of being rich.

Okay. Mm-hmm and my definition of being rich is when your money. Right. Yeah. Rich people don't [00:09:00] spend the money. They earn, they invest and they, they live off the, the yield that, that generates. Well, the problem with, with this is first off to be rich by definition, you need a whole lot of money to start, which obviously most people don't have.

And then two, you need access to specialized. Services and specialized knowledge that that most people don't have access to. And, and that web three breaks all of that down where your money can make money at $10 or a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars. And anyone who's sufficiently curious can get access to these various forms of, of yield aggregation techniques and, and look, you know, for, for me a hundred dollars.

Earning 10% yield is not that life changing, but if you're in a developing country, if a hundred dollars represents, you know, maybe an annual salary for members of your community, and you can now yield through to through mechanisms that are totally open source, 10% on that. And you can do that as a, as a kid, as a teenager, and you can accrue that over a lifetime.

It can really be significant. It can be life changing for all sorts of folks. And so that's another [00:10:00] really great thing about web three is. Massively more equitable, massively, more inclusive. It's a, it's a global phenomena and just anyone who's sufficiently curious can participate equally. It doesn't matter where you live.

It doesn't matter what you look like. It doesn't matter your background or your income level. There's no barriers to entry other than sufficient curiosity and experimentation. And so I think this is really constructive for the ecosystem and, and ultimately constructive for society that that's. Global society got rebooted through the internet.

Like it's just, we live in a different reality than, than we lived when I grew up. And I think that rebooting process is happening again. The whole world meant from being offline to being online and we're at the beginning of the whole world going from being off chain to being on chain. And that's pretty exciting.

Yeah. 

Julian: There's so much a possibility within having the, you know, connectivity of different countries and different individuals who are building and produc. You know, I, I run a company auto labs and we connect, you know, developers to startups. And even just that process of allowing people in their current community to build [00:11:00] products is, you know, it's gonna lead to so much growth and change within startups, within engineering and in its its entirety and that as a profession but really allows so much possibility.

And, and so much ability for those individuals to then influence their local community, which, you know, I'm excited about every day and. You know, definitely, you know, web three and cryptocurrencies is making it easier to pay those individuals, but also to have these transactions and, and grow. Tell me a little bit about block native, you know, where did the idea start?

You said, you know, you were working at Cisco, you were in leadership and, and leading a team there. And then you saw this web three junk and you were like, I don't know, what's nobody wants this, but I want, I think there's some value here. And I think this is the future. What inspired you to start block?

Matt: well, so we had had a few friends who were already building in the, the category and this was early 2018 was sort of the big crypto kitties. Boom. And so this is the first NFT project and the first sort of thing that seemed to go out, you know, sort of [00:12:00] demonstrate the power of Ethereum, a smart contract platform and sort of indicate a sort of broader cultural opportunity.

Believe it or not. In 2017, 2018, the team started building NFT collectible games which was sort of a crazy thing at the time and later was, was prescient. But I had run the global design thinking program at Cisco. I wrote a book on it. I trained tens of thousands of people on a methodology.

And as a result of that, I'm a big believer in user testing. So we're building this game. I'm pretty new to the ecosystem. And I say, you know, let's do some user testing. Let's see how this goes. And. Let's just say it was the worst user testing I've ever seen in my career. Like the feedback was terrible.

And the response from the team really surprised me. They said, oh, all that feedback. That's not us. That's just Ethereum. That's people know, know how to use a wallet or what a wallet is or what transactions are, things like that. And like, that's all, you know, just table stakes, right? It's no different for us than, than crypto kit.

And I, I was sort of surprised by this cuz we're trying to build sort of a mainstream game involving social media influencers. I said, look, if no one can use [00:13:00] this. it's gonna be a big problem. And look, could we do something about it and the team at the time? Oh, you know, maybe we could, so we built these two little widgets, one widget that basically detected if user had a wallet and if not helped them get one and configure it another little widget that basically whenever you did a transaction, looked at the me pool and would tell you what was going on with your transaction.

Because at that point, meta. Really the only game in town had a lot of what I called ghost clicks. Like you'd click and something would happen, but it wouldn't give you any feedback. And the user testing revealed that was really problematic. So we pretty quickly build these little widgets. They're not very sophisticated.

They take a few weeks to build. We go back into user testing. And the user testing is way better and you go great. Okay. Solve that problem, you know, moving right along. And I started to meet a bunch of folks in the web three community started to, to, to, to get more out there, started to show them what we were building.

And, and the story I always say is, I think I had six meetings in a row where the, the, the, the call went like this, this game you're [00:14:00] building. Eh, but that widget that's super cool. Could I have. You know that little thing that gives transaction status. That's amazing. Could I have that? And so this is very much my entrepreneurial journey, which is you build stuff, you put it out there and then you listen very carefully to the feedback and where there's engagement.

And so what we learned was there was a whole bunch of interest and need for developer tooling for infrastructure that would. Smooth out the user experience and provide insight into transactions in flight. And so we wound up pivoting the organization. We, we named it block native at that point. It wasn't called block native before we stopped development on the digital collectibles game.

And we started, you know, focusing on infrastructure and. We just continued that pattern over and over again, but show it to people. People would give us some feedback, give us some ideas, maybe fund some development of some stuff. And now we operate, you know, a global real time platform. That's sort of unlike anything else in web three.

And, you know, we serve. 2000 transactions per second 24 hours a day on our gas platform today for, for providing gas prices to the ecosystem. So it's a pretty interesting journey that [00:15:00] we've been on, but it's just been this, this process of build release feedback, refined build release feedback, refine, which I always recommend to, to technology entrepreneurs is tighten that feedback loop as much as you can, cuz that will get you onto the right.

Julian: Yeah, I love that. I I've, I've heard countless times and it seems like a common theme with a lot of founders is having the, I don't know if it's courage or just, you know, the stubbornness to continue pushing products out there, getting that feedback and really evaluating it in terms of what does the customer need, or what does the user need so that you can better serve that purpose.

You know, it, a lot of people think it's foresight or predicting markets. A lot of times it's just understanding who you're, who you're affecting your user base and, and what they want. And you have to be extremely you have to be extremely stubborn in that pursuit because it, that, like you said, the feedback loop gets tighter and tighter and tighter until you really are adopting technology that they're excited about and excited to use.

Tell me a little bit about block native. You. You [00:16:00] work within, you know, me pools and, and you help kind of smooth out transactions and you reduce gas fees and things along that nature. Describe that the technology a little bit more for, for our listeners to kind of understand its impact. . 

Matt: Yeah, of course.

So, so we specialize in, what's known as pre chain data. So everything that happens in a web three ecosystem between a transaction, being an idea and going on chain and, and it turns out, and I always ask people, you know, if you've ever done an Ethereum transaction, you press submit and you wait for a while and then it, it.

Either confirms or fails, we go, yeah. And you go, have you thought about what's happening while you're waiting and they go, mm, not really. And you go, it turns out a whole bunch of really valuable and interesting things that are actually pretty hard to observe for your typical developer and user and are, are quite important for determining settlement time to settlement in terms of settlement.

And so what we do is we operate a global data infrastructure that provides programmatic access to. Data layer inside web three ecosystem. So today we support Ethereum polygon, OSIS chain B [00:17:00] and B chain Phantom and Bitcoin. And we're always in conversations with other ecosystems to add support as well.

And these ecosystems. You know, build themselves as sort of fundamentally open and transparent and a level playing field. And that's true, except for the pre-chat layer that this area, there is no truth. There is no consensus. There is actually no one me pool. There's actually thousands of unique copies of the me pool all over the world.

And it's this real time environment. So the data volumes are very high and the data's quite sparse. And so for your typical, you know, builder or your typical user, they don't really have any. Access or mechanism of working with this data. And the challenge is there are very well funded operators out there, often quite sophisticated trading operations that do.

And so they have access to this data set. And, and by the way, if you think about on chain data as the truth, All future truth exists in the pre chain layer somewhere. So if you can capture and organize and make sense of the pre chain layer, you can see the future of truth with perfect clarity. And so you wind [00:18:00] up with haves and have nots.

You have people who have access to this. Stated know how to work with it. You have people who don't and it's like playing soccer against a team that can see five seconds in the future. It'd be pretty frustrating because you never touch the ball. Right? And so what we do is we sort of operate as a public good, and we provide, you know, access and tools for using all this stuff.

On top of this, we provide the best gas estimation and all of Ethereum and all of polygon. We provide real time transaction simulation. So you can give us an unsigned transaction and we'll return to you. If this transaction would be submitted right now, here's what would happen. So you can understand if it would succeed or fail, or you could understand what sort terms of settlement or you could even prevent yourself from making a major mistake in losing a bunch of funds.

We do all sorts of value, add things on top, and we provide a range of libraries. So we use curve and connect in the wallet. That's block native technology that provides that if you get gas estimation from any of the major wallets, they're often incorporating our data. The Ethereum foundation itself is.

Mur ours as well. And so this is what we do, and, and by the way, you can go to our website, block native.com and we have a product called me [00:19:00] Explorer. You there's a button it's in purple. I forget what it says now, but you can say check out the me pool and you can actually get a live view. For free, you can click on quick start buttons and you can see things going on in the me pool as we speak it's it's live it's real.

It's, it's it's public access. And then you can upgrade accounts you can pay and, and get more data, get faster data, things like that. So anyways, that's what we do at block native and, and I encourage anyone. Who's interested to check out our 

Julian: website. Yeah, no, thank you for, for that explanation. And I'm curious, you said you work, you're working with some of the major you know, coins out there you're working.

Some wallets as well. Where do your partnerships reach and, and, and who who is kind of has access to use this? Is it everyone, you know, is, is it, is it specific individuals who can utilize the technology within their platforms? You know, where does, where does attraction and I guess the, the reach of block native.

Matt: so we are generalized realtime infrastructure. And so anyone can, can use our platform. So I would guess about [00:20:00] 60% of our, of our customers today are web three developers, builders. You know, they range from DAPs to protocols, to wallets, to marketplaces, you know, NFT. Platforms, all customer bars. We have, you know, thousands of projects in production have integrated our libraries and use our APIs.

By the way, all our APIs are, are open, fully documented, things like that. We do have stuff under the covers that we don't reveal publicly, that we do have access to. So depending on the class of customer relationship we get into, sometimes there's some things that we can pull out from behind the curtain, if you will.

And we're always working on new stuff. So we recently introduced what we call TDN transaction distribution. Which is the ability to use our global realtime infrastructure to insert transactions back into the network. Fast, the peer-to-peer levels play is pretty cool. About 40% of our business are web three traders.

And these range from individual retail traders, operating bots to individuals all the way up to various sophisticated, you know, high frequency traders with large teams all of whom are looking to incorporate real time data into their operation. And so, you know, we support. [00:21:00] L one and L two, their foundations are customer of ours.

Some of the, the leading wallets, our customer of ours. We do a bunch of really interesting work with ledger, major hardware, wallet, and other hardware wallets and, and across the board. So we're pretty well established in the ecosystem, but we're, we're still small and growing and, and every relationship is, is meaningful to us.

And you know, you can use our stuff for free and our commercial accounts start as cheap as a hundred bucks a month. So it doesn't take a lot. Insights into these systems to, to have a very positive ROI and scales up our largest customers are, are pretty substantial. So we're, we're lucky to be doing what we're doing, and we're lucky to have the, the customers and partners that we have.

That's amazing. 

Julian: What are some of the big, biggest risks that block native faces today? 

Matt: Oh, well, there's lots that keeps me up at night as CEO. Anyone who operates in web three knows that there's just a massive pace of change. So everything's changing all the time. So you have to work really hard to stay current and to make sure whatever you're building is sort of up to date.

Of course, the Ethereum ecosystem, which [00:22:00] is kind of our core is about to go through the merge. And there's some massive structural changes to the network that are happening that are. Relevant to us both in terms of updating our existing infrastructure, but also creating new opportunities. So we're, we're really focused on that.

And so, you know, number one is technology relevance. Number two is hiring. So it's, it's really hard to find people who, who know this stuff at the levels that we need to, to work and can, can build. We're always looking for great backend engineers. We're hiring blockchain engineers. We're hiring solidity engineers right now.

So if you know anybody out there. Is interested. We have a careers hub and, and would love to talk to folks who are sort of deep in the weeds of things and really want to understand how things work at sort of a core operational level. And, and then the regulatory environment's obviously very fluid right now.

And I think everybody in the ecosystem is just looking for regulatory clarity. Mm-hmm but you, you. You know, things getting lobbed in, you have regulation by enforcement is sort of difficult to operate with confidence. Now, historically for us, we, we are sort of [00:23:00] more a monitoring system and, and sort of outside the phrase.

So the regulatory environment hasn't applied very directly to us, but as the merge is coming as this notion of proposal builder, separation and block builders is coming that suddenly a lot of these things that are happening are very relevant to players. Like. There's difficult decisions that need to get made.

So we wound up spending more time with lawyers than we'd like to to make sure that we're, we're operating in a way, which is, you know, appropriate for the ecosystem for our customers and for the, the regulatory frameworks that we operate within. So it's it's never a dull moment in the world of web three as a core infrastructure provided that's.

Julian: Yeah, what's what's the long term vision for block native right now. You're, you're enabling a lot of companies to use mental data to, you know, have, have faster transactions, reduce gas fees and, and all this really good stuff. You know, I think from, from my perspective, pushing the adaptability and adaptability of of, of web three and, and and cryptocurrency and, and all, and all the technology that surrounds it.

And developers, I love, you know, [00:24:00] when any, company's working with developers who are building on, on whether it's DS or other platforms and technology, it's, it's incredible because you know, that allowance allows more creativity to, you know, introduce into the market and more ways to use. In an actual functioning way in day to day life.

But what's the long term vision for block native. Where do you see yourself? You know, moving forward in, in what direction is it? Is it the same direction? Is it different? Do you have a couple of few ideas that, that you wanna start experimenting with? What's on the horizon. 

Matt: so we aspire to be a core infrastructure provider to, you know, all of the, the top projects in the ecosystem and to all the top sort of trading operations.

And the good news is we're well on our way towards, towards being that We think that the merge and particularly a lot of the upgrades to the network associated with modularity are really quite important and quite constructive. We are actively building out infrastructure for block builders and we're providing access to that.

So that one of the areas that we think is gonna be important is to encourage [00:25:00] block builder diversity, to. Many block builders, participating, and, and folks who are self staking become maximally competitive in this regard. So over the course of the, the coming months, we'll be introducing more and more new capabilities into our platform that allows folks to participate in block building.

And we think that's quite constructive. But more than anything, we really, you know, believe that the ideals of web three are, are worth fighting for the ideals. Decentralization of censorship positions of, of permission, listeners of unstoppability. And we believe that our infrastructure contributes positively to that.

We have a long way to go in this regard and that, you know, ultimately, you know, we talk about, you know, what we're doing is, is building the next economy and we wanna make sure that that next economy has baked into it at a, at the fabric level these ideals of, of a level playing field, these ideas of equity, these ideas of, of open access, these ideas of transparency.

And, and it turns out that in the pre chain layer, that's particularly challenging area because of. [00:26:00] It's before consensus is formed. And so we think we have an important part to play in all of that. Our name block native is actually sort of a reference to our, our future vision, which is my kids are digital natives, right?

They're born into a world of pervasive internet and mobile devices, which, you know, weirdly I was a part of helping create mm-hmm we anticipate a future block, native generation being born a generation, born into a, a, an economy, which is fundamentally. blockchain based, fundamentally open, transparent egalitarian, and they'll look back at how we do things today with the same sort.

Cock of their head that my kids think about when I was growing up without internet or, or mobile devices. Right. And so we think that the block man of generation can't come soon enough because they're gonna have a lot of big problems. They have to solve like global climate change, like income inequality and things like that.

And that by building this next economy, we can. Free up a lot of the economic resources and is measured in trillions with tea that are gonna be necessary to do so. So it's not about growing our way out of this. [00:27:00] It's about being much more efficient with the usage of, of the existing economic value that's generating.

And so this is I think the, the opportunity for, for the web three ecosystem to do, and we just wanna be a part of. Block native generation being born and being born a little sooner than the otherwise would be. If it weren't for our efforts and, and for that reality that they step into to be in line with the, the ideals that we hold to be important.

Julian: I love that. That's incredible. Bonus question. I'd like to ask all my guests one for me to do some homework and, and get some research in, but also for our, our listeners to provide them some more resources, what books or people influenced you? 

Matt: Oh I'm a big podcast believer. And so the Bankless podcast I think is amazing.

I know those guys really, really well. The breakdown with Nathaniel Whitmore is a great podcast Unchained with Laura shin the epicenter podcast. There's a number of really great podcasts that, that will help you get smart in web three. And I, I really do encourage those, of course, this one as well.

[00:28:00] Two. I really like the big thinkers. So there's some, some big thinkers out there. So if you read any Vitalic Rines pieces, particularly as less technical pieces, they're a little bit more accessible. You can see some of the big thoughts going on there. I, I think the there's a sort of a golden age happening right now of.

Of big thinking around the role of technology in society and how the, the interplay happens. And mm-hmm so, you know, Bella of BAJI I think is how you pronounce his name. Yeah. The network economy is a pretty good one as well. Thought provoking, challenging. I don't agree with everything that he says, but you can't You know, it it's, the scope is, is quite impressive and the ramifications are pretty profound.

And I think one of the things that we learn is that technology at a, at a societal scale has much larger impacts than folks expect in ways that are, are not easy to predict upfront. And I think we're in the middle of a lot of that transformation right now. And quite frankly, we're we need it cuz there's a lot of challenges that we face.

Our blog, the block native blog is a great resource as well and very much [00:29:00] encourage your listen. To check that out. We publish pretty regularly on, on all sorts of topics, both pretty general, like what is the merge and how does it work and what is proposal builder, separation, and block building, how to gas, these work and things like that for folks who are still getting up to speed and then very specific how to operate an MEV arbitrage bot, like if you're really want to get into some of the, the nerdier things.

So we are doing our best to contribute to the education of the ecosystem and to be a, you know, positive contributor to the convers. 

Julian: love that. Thanks for the answer. I'm huge fan of, of companies who are, you know, taking the responsibility of educating, not only their users, but the, the general community. I think anytime we are able to offer more resources, more learning it only leads to more, more productivity, more success within building technology and, and things that are adaptable and, and effective.

But thank you so much for being on the show, Matt. Last little bit is where can we find you? Where can we support block native? Give us your handles your final plug. Yeah. Where can we find you? And. 

Matt: Sure. So by all means, check out block native.com. Go to me, Explorer, create a free user account there and, and [00:30:00] start your, your journey.

Check out our blog is great too. You can learn about where we're gonna be in events via our Twitter handle, which is at block native. And we're pretty active there too. And then me, my name is. To Matt Cutler. My Twitter handles M Cutler, M C U T L E R. And been appreciating followers. Of course, too.

I'm I'm bursty on Twitter, but, but I'm there. And just wish everybody, you know happy getting involved in web three. It's a, it's a full contact sport and it's not a, it's not a spectator sport, so you gotta be on the field and doing it. And we really think that our tools. new users and sophisticated users alike.

Be more confident as they transact and, and achieve more favorable settlement and very much encourage folks who are interested in diving in to go hands on with our stuff, join our discord server and provide feedback. Love 

Julian: that. Well, thank you so much, Matt. I really appreciate you being on the show and giving you, giving us, excuse me, all of you know, your knowledge from, from building startups to where you are now with block native and I hope to see more success and I hope to see you again, 

Matt: You bet.

Thanks, Julian. Thanks so much. Yeah. Take care.