Julian: Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have Ilene Richardson, founder and CEO of Imaginary Content, a marketing firm specializing in expert content creation across various platforms. Ilene, thank you so much for joining the show. I'm so excited to have you on the other side of the microphone.

As, as you were mentioning, you produce content, so it's nice to, to flip the flip the script here and really get to know you a little bit. We were chatting before the show about just content in general and how how vast and, and how, you know, pointed it can be in, in the, the various things that it can do for companies and products and things like that.

But before we get into all that mess, what were you doing before you started Imaginary Content? .  

Ilene: Well first of all, thank you for having me. Looking forward to our chat. I came a very circuitous route to Imaginary Content. My background was actually I was supposed to go to law school if we're going way back.

I was supposed to go to law school. I was in New York City at college and just started to work at, in production as like a bit of a lark. And next thing I knew I was producing and directing a lot of entertainment based programs. For networks, for music videos, for record labels. And I kind of had worked on every side of the table from Scrappy Reel, like just everybody gets in it and does it.

Production to big, you know, big budget production. Yeah. But the one thing I hadn't done was I hadn't worked on the agency side. So I'd worked for networks, production companies myself, and when I moved to Connecticut, I started with a big agency and built their broadcast department, and it was a really interesting exercise to see how the agency world was working and that that is what really opened my eyes to the opportunity that led to starting Imaginary Content.

Julian: Interesting. And, and when you go into a larger company to kind of build out you know, some section of their business, what is the process like? Because it's different, you know, and fundamentally, I, you know, from, from a startup or, you know, gaining new clients and being innovative what are the different procedures or the environment that you had to face, which was maybe different, you know, from now but maybe influenced your, your your, your career at, at Imaginary Content?

Ilene: Yeah, that's a good question. I think it was a lot of kind of the institutional inertia, right? Like everybody, all the creatives, all the account people, they were all trained and kind of working in one way. Mm-hmm. and you know, I sort of came in with my background, which was all over the place. Super diverse.

Wasn't just specifically in agency, right? Yeah. So there was a little bit of friction. Just getting everyone on the same page. Like, you know, you guys brought me in here. This is how things need to work. Let's do it together. And we ended up building a really successful department, but it was, it was a bit of a real culture shock for me coming from.

Like I said, the scrappier kind of, everybody's in it together. Worlds of music, videos and production. And you know, I would direct, I would produce, I would carry gear if we were late getting off a location, like who cares? You know? And you get into the agency world and it was very, it was very old school still in that I would have creatives telling me like, don't tell me about the budget.

I just need to create, you know, and I'd be thinking, well, how do you know how big you can create if you don't? an idea of what we're gonna be able to afford, right? Like, so I, it was just constantly weighing that and, and just trying to keep everybody happy and on task and make sure we were able to work together to create some really great work.

And we did. I'm really proud of the stuff we did there and the team we built, but it did show me that agencies. You know, I have so many layers and so many people in the room all the time, and even in the five years since I've built Imaginate content, I know this is not new news. A lot of other people are preaching this, but it really, really was forefront in my mind.

Just the overcharging, you know, that's kind of. predominant in that culture and the timelines, you know? Mm-hmm. like, sure, we need a line of coffee. We'll come back to you in four weeks. Meanwhile, I'm used to writing half hour shows overnight, you know, . So it and then I started to see a lot of the brands going direct to production vendors and bypassing agencies, and I don't know, looking back on it, I don't really know why I was so confident, because I'm a single mom.

I have a lot of risk. My oldest is in college right now, gotta pay those tuition bills. But I just really had a sense that if I could bring some of the principles of content creation from Yeah. When I worked on, you know, the Art of the Hes Audi campaign, which was like this amazing, cool, innovative campaign or when we created Barnes and Noble television for Barnes and Noble, if I could bring some of that point of view to the agency brand relationship. We could still really focus on like great content across any platform, but we could do it in a way. Made sense to me at least.  

Julian: Yeah, yeah. Do you, and just so fascinating going from, you know, you went from kind of a bootstrap, grassroots kind of approach. You know, really cutting your teeth into doing all sorts of the process, which I'm sure just the level of experience probably gave you a lot of that confidence.

You know, seeing the different components that are necessary and then going into a structured system and then creating your own structured system. It seems like a very. It seems like a great evolution in terms of, you know, how to effectively create a strong relationship with brands and content. What are some ways that you think, you know, companies or agencies or even just content in general kind of fall short?

And what I mean by that is, you know, we see content, you know, all around, and sometimes it doesn't have longevity or doesn't have stickiness or doesn't maybe come across with the right message. Is that, is that because of, you know, creatives not being. Mm, you know, talented, or is it, is it because of missing the point or, I'm, I'm just curious structurally if there's something that, you know, that makes the difference between good content and, and content.

That, and what I mean good is, you know, sticky and, and relatable to the brand.  

Ilene: Well, I'm not gonna say that creatives aren't doing their job. Like, I'm not, I'm not going there and just in the industry. But I think that, you know, it's really hard to put your finger on what it used to be like. Let's make something that goes.

It's like, well, what does that actually mean? Right? You wanna make something that resonates with your core audience. That's really what you're saying. So let's focus on that. And I think bringing it back to a lot of the content we do right now, this enhanced e-commerce content, the, you know, if you're buying on Amazon or you're buying on Walmart, all the content that supports that, we treat that just like we would a broadcast spot in the super.

Like for real, you know what I mean? Because we know this is where your consumer is deciding or they're buying your stuff or they're buying someone else's, not when they're kicking back with 20 friends and a bunch of beers. Yeah. So for us, our success has really been in, we, we just really take to heart the client goals.

We make sure we're, you know, we're exceeding them. And I think some of the agency atmosphere that I've, I've seen it's more about. wanting to do stuff to win awards or wanting to do stuff that's notable for other reasons. Sometimes, you know, there's a lot of tension between the clients and the creatives because they're really pushing for something, but are they always pushing for it for the client's objectives?

Are they pushing for it because they feel like. Creatively, that's what they wanna do. You know? Yeah. Where's, where's the backup for that? Where's, where's the data to say we once had a client and that would be like, well, tell me how, if I spend $200,000 more on this commercial, I'm gonna sell any more of my product.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. You know? So just really being client focused and kind of putting your ego aside and making sure you're doing the best work That's right for your client. Yeah. Whether it's content, whether. Anything. It, I think it really translates to almost any kind of industry. Yeah. Food, like, you know, whatever you're doing, make sure that you're servicing the, the clients first and foremost, or, or they're gonna get wind and go somewhere else.

Julian: Yeah. You've back up so many things that founders on the show have, have mentioned, which is, you know, don't build a, a product that you think will fit in, in some kind of market, but really build for your customer because they'll guide you to exactly what, what they need. I'm so fascinated about this, this idea about content generation.

And I'm curious in, in your perspective and your experience, what are ways that you you know, you have a certain client or brand then you, you look to generate content? And do you focus on, you know, where their audience is in particular and how the audience will translate? What is the, what's the like process?

Is it, you know, audience and, and, and research and then kind of working back from there? Or do, do the brands come with some kind of goal in mind that they want to get across? And then it's about communicating that goal in, in the right medium. What's that process like in terms of generating really valuable content for these.

Ilene: It can go either way actually. Yeah. Both examples can be a use case of how we generate content. Generally, we try to embed ourselves in the brand visual language, the brand direction, and different brands have different demographics of consumers, and then we try to figure out. , you need to go where your audience is.

You need to go where your demographic is. So then we tailor our message for those different platforms, whatever they might be. And sometimes it's really getting hyper local and tailoring that message to one retailer versus another retailer. Yeah. But you need to, you know, you need to understand who your, who your demographic is, who your audience is, where they.

And then how you could speak to them in a way that's gonna resonate, but it still has to be consistent with the brand language. Yeah. The other brand messaging across other platforms. It needs to work cohesively with what potentially other agencies are doing and other media aspects, and you just build a story that's gonna resonate specifically for that.

If we're doing. You know, like a beautiful brand video for like we've done for Don Julio, where it's just all about the founder's message. That's just one thing, right? If we're doing. product pages and brand stores on Amazon. That's something very particular where we know we have to deliver certain points of communication and information to the consumer so that they have confidence in those transactions.

So again, it really, it all boils back to knowing who the audience is for this product, where they are, and how best to speak to them in that place.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. What, what are, what are some of your favorite forms of, of, content?  

Ilene: I love all content. I look at it all as the same challenge. I really do, and I, I, I've done crazy, amazing stuff. I worked with Michael Jackson when he was at his peak, and I've worked with really high profile, notable, really well known creative talent that just kind of open up, you know, your eyes to a world of creativity and I've working with you.

Real people, man on the street stuff. Yeah. And I honestly love it all. I love the idea of telling a story I always have, and whatever story you're telling, you know, make it as visually appealing and impactful as you can. And that's really the through line in what we try to do. Yeah. And I think that authenticity, if you will, is really what resonates.

It's just being in love with the act of storytelling, whatever the platform is and, and however you express it.  

Julian: And that's incredible. The, the, the types of projects you've been on and, and who you've worked with. And, and, and I can see each component of it really is around one focal point, which is a story and developing the story around, you know, the brand and the product, which is so you know, so many, so many companies have a difficult challenge because, you know, they're either focusing on too many things or their product might be too niche.

Or, you know, they might just have too many ideas. And so it's, it's fascinating to see kind of the. Behind the scenes in developing this, this content. You mentioned something on your website, but also you know, look into your background and it's the, this idea of enhanced e-commerce content. I'm not sure if I fully understand what that is, so I'd love to kind of dive into what, what you mean by this enhanced e-commerce content and how you feel.

Effectively changed the way E-commerce has, you know, whether grown or been you know, more digestible from, from a consumer stand.  

Ilene: Well, first of all, don't feel bad. My mother doesn't even understand what I do. probably never has and never will. I didn't, I didn't come up with the term enhanced e-commerce content.

That's kind of an industry term, and it refers to the content that you see when you buy a product online. So literally, if you're on Amazon and you see those carousel images, or maybe there's a video, Or if you are on Target and there's a 360 video, or if you're buying clothing somewhere and it has a live stream Shopable video of someone trying that on in the store, that's enhanced e-commerce content and it's come so far in the last five or six years.

Yeah, to be honest, when, when I got the first call to see about producing content for some of our clients, I had no idea what it was. No idea. But what I knew was if it was visual, We could knock it at the park because that's what we do, right? We know how to create really amazing visuals in a variety of ways.

And what we've learned over the last, you know, four or five years of doing this and now we're kind of considered experts in that field, is it is so important to the way we're all shopping today. Even pre C. It's like, you know, even if you're in the store, you might look on your phone to price shop or make sure it's the right thing that you were thinking of.

So that enhanced content is everything. That you will find online for your e-commerce purchases that just help tell you about the product. So, you know, if you're in the store, you might, you might have looked at the label, or you might have like, felt the fabric and wondered what it might be. It's meant to give you all that information on brand engaging in our fun way, so that you don't regret your purchase, that you're, you know, a confident consumer and you retain customer loyalty.

Julian: Yeah, I, I was literally shopping the last two nights with, with my partner. We were going through the different options and we looked at the reviews. We were looking at videos and, and use cases, and it's really the, it wasn't the ones that had more information, but it was the information that really spoke to the product, which is, like you said, the feel of the fabric.

How does it look? Thin on the, on the model or, or the review, whoever the real person is. And that whole journey, I mean, it, it really helps me decide and helps a lot of consumers decide on, on what to choose. And so, you know, I, it's amazing that companies are investing in into that because I think that's a differentiator a lot of times between, you know, by now or not by now.

And you know, any hesitation is just like, probably not gonna buy whatever, whatever product that is. You mentioned that content has really changed in the last you know, four to five years, I'm assuming, especially with the advent of TikTok and a lot of the more short generated content, but also in the explosion of e-commerce.

You know, after Covid kind of made a lot of, forced a lot of business to go online. Both in good and bad ways, but. It, it kind of created this new renaissance of content. Where is, where is content going now? Is it still kind of in that same vein in terms of social platform like Instagram and TikTok?

Or do you, have you seen a new, in kind of a new innovative way that people are, are digesting content?  

Ilene: Yeah, that's a great question. There's a lot of innovation literally month to month happening in how people are digesting content and it's become, Abnormal, but the norm to really think of it as omnichannel.

So it's not just that some people are buying online, lots of people are buying online, more people are buying on their phones now even than on their desktop. And we're really starting to think of it just as a omni shop omnichannel shopper. So if someone orders online and picks it up in front of the store or is in store checking out the competition online, Or has something set up for Subscribe and Save or they see a live stream shopable video on a social platform and you know it's by an influencer they follow and they just one click and wanna get that.

It's all part of the same thing. It's not siloed anymore. It's not like, okay, you've got, you're out of home and you've got your broadcast commercials and then like kind of over here, maybe somebody will. A not so crappy picture of your box. Now it's like, okay, we need to pay attention to all of it, kind of with the same weight, you know, because it all is a touch point for the consumer when they're deciding if they're gonna buy your stuff or someone else's.

Julian: Yeah, and particularly with. Clothing. I'm, I'm always like looking up how it looks on someone else. On Google or on Instagram. Yeah. And just to really see how it, how it translates and like, is that person the same size as me? I don't know. But it's really cool to see how companies are focusing on and that, you know, the more you know, visibility you can have of your product, the, the more likely someone's gonna be you know, wanting to, to actually purchase your brand.

Yeah. Thinking about this whole process with within, you know, building a service based company like, you know, like Imaginary Content, what were the different ways that, you know, I guess some challenges that you face, you know, within client acquisition? Because I think, you know, not a lot have spoken about and, and you know, go to market strategies with service companies.

Obviously you offer a product, but a lot of that I'm sure is, is service generated by the relationships you build with your clients. Similar to a company that I. In the recruiting space. But what are some ways or some challenges that you face kind of building clients promoting kind of your, your, your work getting new clients and acquiring them.

What was that help process like? And, and where is it now? You know, who are you working with and what, what's exciting about the the relationships you have? .  

Ilene: So it's super interesting because we, you know, you never really know what direction your company's gonna take. I, I find as a founder, if you kind of keep your north star of making sure that you're doing great work and you're keeping your clients happy, there's a lot of shifts that can happen within that.

Mm-hmm. . So for me, I've always tried to. And to make sure that we're servicing our clients first and foremost, and staying within things that we could really deliver out of the park. But with c it upended, you know, any kind of bis dev plan we might have had for that year or two. All our advisors were just saying, keep your head down, keep your clients happy, keep your team employed.

Keep everyone healthy. You know, coming out of covid. I never thought of myself as a salesperson, which, which kind of cracks me up right now cuz I really don't, I don't think of myself as a salesperson. So I was like, oh, we need to really focus on Biap. I'm gonna hire this firm, spend all this money, and they're gonna be our external bi dev team and that's gonna be great.

And so I did that. They did not bring me one client six months and like ridiculous amount of. Not one client. Yeah. And I was terrified to end that relationship because I kept feeling like, you know, I'm not a salesperson. Right? Like, I need to bring that in. I need to bring that in. And this is kind of like one of the lessons I tell my friends when they think about companies and starting companies and what you do, don't discredit yourself the way I did.

I've done this in a few different ways. Because really you are the best advocate for what you do. And I'm paying this other company to learn about what we do and then. Advocate for what we do and telling them who is the right client and they got it wrong every time and as soon as I got rid of them and took it on with a different strategy.

For us, it's about visibility. It's about when people know that we're the ones that are doing the content they've seen out there, they wanna work with us. We've onboarded a bunch of new clients this year, and every single one of 'em was like, oh, we had some of your work in our like aspirational book. We just didn't know it was you.

So, wow. Once I got rid of the external team and brought it internally, I focused on Getting out and about going where I know my clients are, right? Like we talk about going where the consumers are, being where they are. I go where I know my potential clients are. So I've been showing up at some conferences and we'll target people that we know are right for our services and, and try to get on the radar before and have a deck ready.

And I've literally stood at breakfast with like a pdf like. You know, but dying to meet you. Here's what we do. And it's resulted in big name brands coming on board. Yeah. Opportunities like this and other things. And also being really clear about word of mouth with current clients as they move on, take different roles, have other opportunities with their organizations.

So much of our growth has really been organic with Yeah. Other. other institutions and brands that just kind of follow what we do and move forward. So, you know, no more external bis a .  

Julian: I was, I was gonna say, you know, this whole word of mouth concept I think is and, and somebody brought it up to me, I think it was the founder, Brendan Keegan of of, of Merchants Fleet.

But he talked about, he, he recommended this book called Contagious. And it was all about how the best way to, you know, market your company is really just do good work and then let the. Clients that you have kind of spread the word in a few different ways, and that word of mouth effect is way more effective than any other.

You know, in terms of client acquisition, you know, is more effective than a lot of other avenues. Some people do marketing emails and things like that. Obviously content generation, I think, is in its own bucket because it, it creates, That connectivity to a brand and an association to it that I think is, you know, invaluable.

But that word of mouth concept is so fascinating. What are some ways that. Maybe structure your relationships with your clients to kind of really have that, you know, in top of mind when they're thinking about, you know, content and, and their brand. You know, what are some strategies that you've used?

And obviously this might be a selfish question for me, , but , but just curious, you know, what are some ways you've structured that to you know, really have that strong relationship to, to then create that network effect?

Ilene: You know, the thing is, it's really hard to just say, we're gonna have our biz dev strategy be by word of mouth, right? Because it feels kind of passive. It feels like you can't control it. And then, you know, I don't know, maybe you've had these nights too where you wake up and you're like, what have I done to move the company forward?

Are we moving forward? Are we moving forward? What happens if Xbi client leaves it? You know, are we teeing up the next one? Having an external BI team feels like things are happening and the word of mouth thing can be a slower, although more effective build with our clients. Everyone has access to me.

They know me, they see me, and they know that I have the last eyes on their work, that we really care that we're gonna do a great job for them. And we do over and over. , it can be tricky cuz you don't wanna tell your client, Hey, can you like hook me up with X, Y, Z? Because you know, that's an, that's an awkward thing to ask, but I found just by.

Taking care of your clients, they naturally want to share their resources with their network. You know, it's like a natural thing. If like a buddy of yours is like, Hey, you got, you know, do you have a guy? They'll be like, yeah, I have a guy. You know, people, people wanna share. That kind of thing. Right? So it all comes back to what we were saying earlier.

It's like, Do good work. We care about every single thing that goes out the door. We produce so much content, and I tell the team all the time, like, we're not a factory, we are not a factory. We are not just throwing it out. Like everything that goes out the door matters. I don't care how tired you are, how you feel, you know, if you can't give it the proper attention, it's not going out the door today.

We have to make sure that that quality, that really is our hallmark. And going back to my stint at an agency, there was often. An internal feeling of tension with the clients. Yeah. And not in a productive way. You know, nobody's gonna do their best work and the clients aren't gonna be receptive to it if you're like butting heads with them all the time, you know?

Yeah. And you know, I always keep top of mind for me and my senior staff especially. It's like we wouldn't be able to do what we do without clients. So they need to trust us. They need to know we have their back. We're here for them. We're not precious about it. If we're in bed with you, we do it. You know?

Sure. It's great to have our three week timeline, but if you call me up and you're like, Hey, this came down the pike. This has to go out. We get it done. Yeah. And that builds loyalty and that's just the way we work. But it does, it builds loyalty in your clients and they take that with them in their conversations with peers.

Julian: Yeah. What are some of the biggest challenges that Imaginary Content faces today?  

Ilene: Yeah. Today? Well I think we're challenged with continuing to reinvent the genre. As you touched on earlier, like always looking for what's new, how we're gonna service our clients better, how we're gonna keep the content fresh and challenging the team too, to really keep that top of mind because when you are doing.

a lot of similar work over and over. Sure. It's easy to continue to think it, you know, of it in the same way. But we have a lot of things in place in the company to keep people thinking outside the box and taking them out of their day to day and, you know, bringing a fresh creative. And I also try to hire people with just different backgrounds.

Like we once had creative person here who's a beekeeper and someone else who was a heavy metal drummer. You know, we just want all different kinds of people here cuz they bring all of that into the work. Yeah. Certainly in 2022, hiring is a little more of a challenge than it used to be. Mm-hmm. , it hasn't stopped us, but it's, you know, figuring out how to keep your team safe in c.

And happy coming out of Covid requires a lot of, a lot of thought and we've brought in some consultants to help us make sure we're people first culture and you know, we're keeping everyone happy and doing great work. But I think our biggest challenges, back to your question, are really just ensuring that we're keeping the content fresh, that we're executing at the highest level, we're making sure we continue to take care of our clients and looking for the right ways to.

Julian: Yeah. What are some ways you hire diverse talent like that? I mean, the different backgrounds. I think a lot of, a lot of companies wanna, you know, preach that and they wanna be diverse, but it's hard. It is very difficult to, to feel confident that they can not only accomplish the task that you have for them, but also that they will try to find new ways if they.

And be collaborative and cooperate and communicative within the team to then achieve that goal. And that's, that's a, that's a distinction that I think a lot of companies have a hard time to find as someone who not only can do the job, but if they can't, can seek out the, the solution for it and will continue to push themselves.

Just a quick question. Yeah. How do you, what are some ways that you use to some strategies for hiring?

Ilene: That's a good question. . I think, you know, our, we're set up from the get go. Not to be like your traditional agency. You might be able to see a little bit. We're right on the water here. Usually in agency, a creative team is like inside, kind of in a dark workspace.

My team has Florida ceiling windows on the water, and they can see the rowers go by every day. We, we, we start every morning with either like a creative inspiration, something we've seen out in the wild. It doesn't have to be anything big, just a font. You liked a sunset. That was cool. We tried to constantly reinforce that we're a culture of creativity and a culture of excellence in big ways and little ways, so, Going back to the hiring, you know, we wanna attract people who are interested in being in a culture like this, right?

People who come here and realize like, oh, I'm not just like, you know, slogging away in the dark, doing the same thing. Like here we are in this cool space, and know, people are dedicated to ensuring we have, we are thinking in different ways about our work.  

Julian: Yeah, I love the Florida ceiling windows.

I was living in New York for a little bit and even some parts of la it's hard to get. The sunlight obviously doesn't breed so much creativity and and energy. It's, it's just an energy Exactly boost. You know, if everything goes right. Long term wise. What's the long-term vision for Imaginary Content?

Ilene: I wanna make sure that we can grow our team. You know, I look on biz dev as my service to my team to create more opportunities for them to grow in their careers and take on different kinds of work. Not just to grow the company, but really to grow the people. So I'd like to see us to con, to continue in that way.

You know, I think we're set up now with some great clients, global brands, and we're , we're literally taking on more every day. And we're looking into how AI can play in our space. We're having a lot of conversations around that right now. Would like to be a forerunner in understanding the right way to do it.

That, you know, obviously creative humans are always needed and we love them. That's that's who we are. But can we take some of the lesser fun tasks and can we use AI for that and be able to keep the brain power on the bigger picture? Yeah, we're looking into a lot of that.  

Julian: Right. Incredible. I always like to ask this question selfishly for my own research, but also for my audience.

What books or people have influenced you the most, whether it was early in your career or currently now?  

Ilene: Day to day. You know, I've always been influenced by everyone's story. I always read a lot of biographies. I used to be the person to interview rock stars and actors for like, MTV and vh1, and I always find inspiration in someone else's story.

They don't have to even be super successful. Like I was just talking to a real estate developer yesterday and like learning about how he created his business that he's super successful at. I think there's something you can learn from almost everybody, and I like to remain open to that. Yeah. You know, and challenge myself.

Still be kind of always learning. Right now I'm reading a book by Will Haskell, who was like the youngest elected official. He's state senator for our area of Connecticut. He's amazing. I know him personally, and he wrote this book called A hundred thousand First Bosses. His first job out of college is being a state senator.

Yeah. So literally he had a hundred thousand first bosses. But to be perfectly honest, between being a single mom and running a growing company, . I don't get to read anywhere near as much as I would like to.  

Julian: Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show, Ilene. I, I'm always excited to chat with, with founders of, of all different sorts and, and working on, you know, whether it's different products or services.

There's always such inspirational stories as you've mentioned, when, when you learn from someone and, and I hope my audience gets. You know, a lot of good pieces out of this, but last little bit is where can we find and support or even get content from Imaginary Content? Give us your plugs, your websites, your LinkedIn, your Twitters what would be a part of the vision?

Ilene: Awesome. Our, our website, I just had a meeting with our developers. It's almost completely relaunched, but you can find us at imaginarycontent.com. There's a. , great amount of work we have up there in the e-commerce space for reference. We also do straight up production work. We shoot commercials. We do a lot of post production.

I have an amazing design team called Imaginary Content Design. They do broadcast design, show opens and experiential work. We're just working on this project with meta for a huge rap. State, a VR project. So feel free to take a look, reach out if you need anything. And thank you, Julian. This was really fun.

Really appreciate it.  

Julian: Love that. Yeah. Thank you so much and I hope you enjoyed the show. And, and maybe next time you're on, you're on my side of the coast. We'll reconnect. But it was such  

a pleasure having you.

Ilene: Thank you so much. Good to meet you.  

, bye.