March 22, 2023

Episode 206: Daniel Naim, CEO & Founder of Fennel

Daniel Naim is the Founder and CEO of Fennel, the first retail investing platform to allow users to vote with their shares and access ESG information about the companies they invest in. Backed by the founder of Acorns, Capital Factory, and more, Fennel launched in the fall of 2022 and provides retail investors ESG-based information on the companies they invest in, while also not allowing for shareholder lending so investors can take an active role in being a shareholder.

Julian: Hey everyone. Thankyou so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have DanielNaim, CEO and founder of Fennel. Fennel focuses on making shareholder votingeasier for the everyday person and access ESG information about the companies theyinvest in. Daniel, I'm so excited to chat with you, not only because of of yourfounder journey, but also about what you're working on at Fennel.

Everyone in, in, I think most people whoare, are able to invest or getting into investing now is really, paying a lotof attention to what companies are doing. Not only as a, from a product and andcompany standpoint, but also from a sustainability. And thinking about thedifferent decisions they make outside of their organizations is amazing thatFennels allows this opportunity to, to get access to that information.

But before we get into all that and allthe great stuff with Fennel, what were you doing before you started the.  

Daniel: Yeah. Hey Julian.Great. Great to be on here. Really excited, really excited to share what we'redoing. So before the company, I actually wasn't in this space at all. I wasn'tin finance, I was not in startup, never aspired to be at all.

I was doing my physics PhD at Livermore.So I was doing dark matter research detection. So, just briefly, we look at thegalaxy, we know that there's missing matter, so we call it dark matter. I wasjust like focused on the mysteries of the universe. And then I was working atLivermore. Same technology overlapped with nuclear reactor monitoring.

So how do we put, how do we, how, howcan we tell how much plutonium is produced in other countries? Anyway, so like,you can tell, not, not focused on this at all.

Julian: Yeah. What, what wasthe catalyst? What got you into it?  

Daniel: Yeah, so, during myphysics PhD career early on, I took this class called econo physics, which wasessentially how do you take physics models and apply them to the stock market?

And at the time, like I didn't reallythink anything of it. I had like an economics minor in my undergraduate and Iwas just like, this is a great filler credit. Like maybe it's interesting, etcetera. So I just, I hopped into the class, took it. I never traded a stock inmy life, never did any of that stuff.

And I essentially got hooked. So like Ireally started to, be fascinated like I started to create my own trading modelmodels mm-hmm. to try to like see what you. What signals I can look for in thestock market to try to trade better. And it's so funny because in dark matter you'reconstantly looking for no signal.

You never see anything. And, and thefirst, the opposite was true in finance. It's like I started to create tradingsignals and I can see other traders kind of looking at similar signals. Yeah.And that kind of hooked me in.  

Julian: Yeah. Interesting.And, and for, for, I don't know if you have any specific signals, but whatsignals in particular for those who don't know that, traders are looking at is,I think we all probably just stare at the ticker and see where the line's goingand predicting whether or not the line is gonna go up or have an aggregate ofthat line going up.

Some of us, look at different pieces interms of like the financial reports that we see, but what in particular are theother signals that we may not be aware of.

Daniel: Yeah, so there's,there's quite a few tools that, wall Street people use to, discover what acompany is doing and where they think it's going.

They could look at, different quotes ondifferent exchanges or different orders of execution to see technical patternsof like, okay, I noticed that there's a crumbling quote here. I'm looking atthe spread between what the bit and ask is. How often, what's the volume andthe liquidity of execution that I'm seeing at the time, so you can get reallynuanced into like, , the, the book values.

Like what's gonna be traded at whatpoint, but more importantly, I think like systematically putting all thesehundreds of data points rather than scrolling yourself and trying to find out.Yeah, it's things like a factor lens model. So oftentimes you might hear onlike CNBC or Bloomberg, people talking about, oh, an overvalued stock or anundervalued stock, or momentum or whatever quality.

This is a high quality. Well, all ofthose essentially have like hundreds of fundamentals about the company stuffedinto a system and they compare them to all the other companies and they try torank them, right? Yeah. So it's a little bit of that, like how can you findundervalued? Stocks that are trading exponentially.

Mm-hmm. upon that day. Mm-hmm. .  

Julian: Yeah. And do differentof different models that you were working with or experimenting with, do they,do they incorporate different signals as variables and then they extract somekind of input? Is it a formula? and, and does each model kind of havedifferences in those signals or are there other differences that define thosemodels?

Daniel: Yeah, there's quite abit. So it's, it gets quite complex. Like there are quite a few, they call themquants, quantitative traders on Wall Street, and a lot of these models are verylike secretive as to what works and what they call alpha. So you're, you'repicking out a signal. But yeah, they're very different.

So like, my PhD. Analysis focused onwhat was called a principle component analysis. It's like where you take twodifferent completely arbitrary inputs, so like, I don't know, price. Yeah. AndESG score, let's say. And you try to find a population of stocks or apopulation of something happening that falls within a confidence bound.

So it's like, sure, if something is everoutside of this range, there's a 95% chance. gonna return back to equilibriumor something like that. Sure. So how do I isolate those and how do I findunique data sets?  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And isthat how Fennel started or when particularly got you excited about the ESGmotion of, of  

Daniel: No. Yeah, so that wasnot how Fennel started at all. So that was just kind of me like, waking up and,and doing my models and trading and I thought nothing more of it. But reallywhat got Fennel started was I was approaching my graduation in the, in the PhDcareer. . I was just wondering like what I wanted to do.

I really enjoyed Academia. A lot of it,was money and politics, which, I think exists everywhere. But I lived in theBay Area and you couldn't really see the sun in sun. Some summer days. Yeah.And so we just had like a fifth season called like fire. Yeah. And I justremember thinking like, okay, dark matter's.

Cool. If I, what am I gonna look back onin 20 years of work and be like, oh, I worked on something that I actuallycared about. Mm-hmm. . And I knew that climate change was like this existentialdread, and I knew that, we weren't doing enough about it. Mm-hmm. . And so Istarted to go down this rabbit hole of like, , I found ESG, I found alternativedata sets and I was just like, oh, this is great.

And also horrible because the dataquality is not great, but I know where it's going. Mm-hmm. and three thingswere happening in the world, like around me. That kind of led me to the lightbulb moment of knowing that, Fennel was a viable business, or mm-hmm. , youknow, a solution like this had to exist.

The first was there was a company likeTesla that was exploding in the stock market. and no one really cared aboutprice to earnings or fundamentals. Yeah. It was a value play, right? Ageneration knew that a company like Tesla couldn't, not exist in 20 years.Right. Had to, and all of a sudden domestic and international policy started tochange.

So you had California, New Jersey,Germany saying by 2035 we're only gonna sell electric vehicles. And And on topof that, Ford and GM and all these large companies started investing billionsinto the infrastructure around ev. Yeah. So clearly something went off in myhead like capital markets talk, right?

They have massive influence to, to alarge extent. The second thing that happened at the time was engine number one,which was this small hedge fund had about 50 million assets under management.Took on ExxonMobil in one of their shareholder meetings to take over four ofthe 12 board seat. With the sole intent of reducing carbon emission.

So their only mandate at Exxon was toreduce carbon emission and they won and they got the support from BlackRock andthese major people and they've been trying, pushing for that internally overthe past couple years. And then the last thing was the GameStop movement. I thinkthe GameStop movement.

And when the meme stock craze happened,yeah, that really like lit the spark for me. And I saw how passionate a bunchof everyday people got together and decided to. unify under a single cause.Yeah. And I thought, great. Can you put all three of those things together? We,our generation gives so much, we care so much about climate issues, socialissues, all that stuff.

Can you actually direct them towardspublic companies to get them to change better, for the better and faster?  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And whatwas the incumbent prior? Obviously there, there's some, some very clearexamples, but what was the incumbent prior to be able to, actually, or feelthat you, whatever you're trading in, whatever shares you had actually had animpact in your day-to-day life.

And I only, because I know very fewinvestors who say, oh, I drink Coke, so might as well buy Coke stock or useApple products. Might, well buy Apple stocks. But what was, what was thedecision making prior to that? Was it simply just looking at trade volumes andseeing what values are increasing over time.

How were you saying for me? For the, forgeneral users? Yeah, for general users. General users, yeah. How are theyconnected to this stuff?  

Daniel: That was it. I mean,like the, the products out there in the market right now really don't tell youwhat company stands for. Yeah. They, they really just put a price chart infront of you and expect you to make a decision on that or like a price toearnings number.

A fundamental that has no context, norelevant information. And on top of that, their business models are veryconflicted with their user. Yeah. So they participate in things like paymentfor order flow. So they just want you to trade. Yeah. They make more money themore you trade and when you just see a screen of like a price, that's whatyou're gonna trade on.

You're gonna trade more frequently.Markets are very volatile. So like there, there are no tools out there, in myopinion that are accessible that, show this level of impact of a company. Yeah.You make these decisions based on a product. You spend so much time trying tobuy certain products based on is it sustainable?

What's the quality like, what's theprice point? Right. It would only make sense. We do the same with the companieswe invest our money in. Right?  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And youmade a, you, you mentioned the data, the ESG data that was Yeah. Available and,and what was the quality of that data? And what I mean by is how well was it inlabeled?

How well is it indexed? How muchinformation can you actually gather? And, and how accurate is it? In terms ofwhat companies are doing as a fundamental? I, I guess, I guess, uh,priority.  

Daniel: Yeah. So what I cansay about that is like, it really does depend on the industry. It depends onthe company.

It depends, it depends, right? That'slike a very, that's not a great answer, but let me just try to pull out some ofthe like, details around it. Sure. Right. So let me try to pull out what I canpull out about that. So, it really depends on what the company wants to sharewith the world. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So a lot of this falls on the company's hand.

There are a lot of alternative data setsthat look at HR stuff to understand the employee breakdown, female versus male.Some, some companies choose to report on these ESG metrics in their SEC filingsor mm-hmm. , mm-hmm. in their quarterly or yearly ESG scores. And becausethey're submitted to the SEC, like they, they're mandated to be fairlyaccurate.

Sure. Also, the SEC right now has comeout with a like carbon disclosure rule saying that if you're a public companyyou have to accurately report on your carbon emission, which is a greatinitiative, and they passed that last year. . So I think that's gonna helptremendously. But over time, it really is gonna be the government's likemandate to step in and make sure that these public companies disclose morethings.

Yeah. Because when you think aboutclimate, when you think about social issues, there are risks to the business.Mm-hmm. , you look at what's happening this week in the financial sector,right? That's a governance risk, right? Yeah. So if you don't understand thegovernance risk behind a bank or something like that, there is inherentinvestor.

Right. And so it really is up to thegovernment to mandate these companies to disclose this stuff. And then us, likeI said, like so I'm physics PhD and we have a bunch of physics PhDs on theteam, and we have went through the data sets and made sure that we're onlyshowing the highest quality data and we're sourcing from multiple places.

Yeah. And we're kind of doing the job sopeople can see it. Now, just one step back, what people had before was nothing.Yeah. Okay. . Let's say I'm Jewish, Christian, Muslim, I don't want to investin pork products, aborts, anything like that. People couldn't even find thatout without having to pay a manager 1% Yeah.

Of their portfolio. Right, right. And Ididn't think that that's necessarily the, the most fair. So what we're doing atFennels, we're showing over 200 metrics. We're not just showing a score. We'reshowing you the underlying metrics. So what is the pay gap between men andwomen at this company?

What is the carbon emission? What's theCEO pay to the average employee, et cetera, right? Yeah. I believe that thosevalues actually need to be understood.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I mean Icould see working within companies you know now and the different decisions asa founder, you, you, those are so important to the culture of the company and,and, and also how they view their customer as well and in that relationship.

And it's becoming more and more, Ithink, critical for people who are investing to know what those decision makedecisions are. And I guess in your opinion, or in your experience, what haveyou seen, I guess more recently with companies and how are. Shifting from, fromthe old model, whether it's the leadership that they hire, the decisions thatthey make, or how they roll out products, what have you?

Companies do more and more popularlynowadays that, that they hadn't been doing in terms of ESG.  

Daniel: The, the tongue incheek answer is green washing . Yeah. Right. All the companies love to put allthese PR like outlets of like cows, happy cows and green grass, and we'resustainable. And look at our car on the beach.

Cleaning up recycling. Yeah. But I don'tthink like, I think that's, that's a whole separate issue. What, but one thingto note, , they are hiring staff around diversity. I mean, I think likeliterally today Nike was announced that they're hiring, like, they hired aChief Diversity Officer and Chief D D E I, right?

So, they're starting to put in moresystematic procedures for diversity, equity, and inclusion. They're starting tobrand and move away from nothing like they wanna make stuff more recyclable. ,that's better advertisement for them. As the millennial and Gen Z generationsgrow. Yeah.

They're, their purchasing power in theeconomy is gonna grow. And if you're not a company that's anticipating that andcreating products and doing stuff, you're kind of gonna be dead in the water.Yeah. So the, the forward looking companies are already starting to account forthat by the way they hire.

And also by the way, the ones thatprobably address for issues like, diversity, equity, and inclusion are gonna getbetter talent too. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So wouldn't you want to invest in, yeah.. There's all these like little things you can see that public companies aredoing, but I think personally the most important is disclosure.

Yeah, disclosure. Disclosure, talk.Share what you're actually doing, not in a format that's a public, like a PRresponse, but file it to the SEC and say, this is what we're disclosing andwhat I love so much about shareholder voting. You look at all the votes thatpublic companies put in place right now, and they're all centered on thoseissues.

It's like, yeah, should Apple report onits forced labor? Should Microsoft report on gender pay gap disparity,right?  

Julian: Yeah. And what and howand, and, and just the reporting thing is extremely interesting also in, inregards to the voting. How, how, I don't know if you have a percentage here,but how many shareholders are missing out on the, on voting or not electing tovote or not having time to vote?

Like how many people are missing on thatopportunity and, and how many companies are just, know, making decisions onthe, the minority of their shareholders, or I guess those who have Yeah. The,the attention span or the time to actually vote?  

Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. I mean,look, I, I think living in a capitalist system is fine as long as it'sdemocratic, right?

Yeah. And I think a lot of people havethese investments and they're giving up influence and they're giving up power.So something like less than 30% of people are taking advantage of, of theirshares and why I think that's like really problematic. And, and I'll, and I'lltalk a little bit about why I think like it's really not their fault.

Sure. Right. And I'll talk about how Ithink Fennel, like we're trying to help them. , it's not their fault becausewhat ends up happening is, and what's really key to us and why we built abrokerage firm is that most brokers will lend out your securities. Okay? Sothose familiar may be in this space, might know that sometimes they'll give akickback to the investor.

But what they do is brokers operate inthe same way that banks do. So banks have your cash and reserve and they lendit out and they invest and they do all this stuff. Brokers do the same thing.rather than it being fiat currency without it being dollars. Mm-hmm. , it'syour stock certificate. Mm-hmm. . And so some people will wanna borrow thestock to short it, to bring the price down, or some people will wanna borrow itto vote.

So it turns out when you lend out yourshare, the vote follows the share. Yeah. So the right to you can sell the rightto vote. And if you look at the record date, the date, you need to hold theshare in order to participate in the vote. The amount of interest on peopleborrowing it, shoot. Yeah, and most retail brokerage firms when you sign up fora margin account, you will also commit to like what's called a fully paidsecurities lending program, which is just like the ability to lend.

You're giving your broker the ability tolend out your shares, and so likely your shares are lent out, and so likelyyour vote doesn't even count right now, right when you vote. You, you breakthat down even further it's majority high net worth individuals that are doingthe participation. Mm-hmm.

you can break it down by zip code andsee where they're voting from. And it's always the high net worth zip codesthat are more participating in these votes. Mm-hmm. . So you should just startto think like, okay, this is where the influence is. This is why, where I needto get involved now. Now let me tell you like why I think it's really not theeveryday person's.

one is these companies keep this stuffon hush. They don't want to talk about this. Yeah. If a vote ever comes tofruition, it's because the public company didn't want to enact those changes inthe first place. Mm-hmm. . So the process is an ngo, an activist investor willcome to the company and say, I think you should disclose how much you pay menversus women.

And the company will fight them for ayear, two years. They'll even go to the SEC and say, we don't think that they., put this vote forward. We think X, Y, Z. The SEC will rule in and say, Nope,it's allowed. Yeah. The vote will come forward. And always the company doesn'twant it to pass. Right. Because it might hurt margins.

It might hurt profitability. Even thoughthat's not necessarily true. What ends up happening is all these largefinancial institutions are the ones that are deciding the vote. Yeah. So largeETF managers, fund managers, people that are borrowing everyday people's sharesdictate the votes. So none of them pass.

Yeah. Right. . Just the last thing Iwanna say here. All these institutions have voting policies, so they haveautomatic voting. The problem with votes is like, it's 50 pages, 10 point font.You get it in the mail, what do you do? You toss it in the trash. You're notgonna read all these, you're not gonna do it.

Yeah. They, the institutions don't evendo it. They. teams to do that. So what they end up doing is they, they, theysign up for a policy. Mm-hmm. . And so that's what we want to do at Fennel islike sign people up for a policy that says, look, I care about climate, soevery time there's a climate vote, vote me in favor of positive climate change.

Right? Yeah. And we want to actually putthe votes on the platform directly there, show the data, show the breakdowns,do all that.  

Julian: Yeah, well, it's, it'sincredible not only the amount of data and, and the amount of under voting thathappens, but just the ease of opting into, say, an automatic voting pattern,which, which allows me to, to still feel care carefree in terms of putting mymoney somewhere and allowing it to grow with the company that I truly feel is,is gonna, benefit me in, in the right, in the right direction and benefit the,the globe, and, and I'm in line with that vision.

Tell us a little bit about the traction.How many people are on Fennel? What are you excited about in terms of therecent growth, but what are you particularly excited about this year and, andthe coming growth that you'll see?  

Daniel: Yeah, so, we've beenworking on this for like two and a half years now.

Countless engineers, like tens ofengineers have been working on this, like you can imagined a vast amounts of datawe'd have to put all under one place. So we actually just launched the producta month ago. So we have some, like, alpha, early beta users on right now. Everymonth for the next two, three months, we're gonna keep onboarding more peopleand we have thousands on the wait list.

Mm-hmm. . So we have several thousandson the wait list and that list continues to grow month over month at anaccelerated pace. We haven't really made, a large effort to make ourselvesvocal and I think we are going to be doing so over the next few months, sohopefully people will like, see us more.

Yeah. And I think this is probably themost excited stage I'm at right now is. . Yeah. Just going out into theworld.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I lovethat. What are some of the biggest challenges that you see that are, that youface today?  

Daniel: Yeah, so I think thatthe biggest challenge is gonna be education and awareness.

Mm-hmm. , right? How do we, how do wehelp people really understand, like, how do we help them understand their powerand how do we help them understand the data? Yeah. And to act on the data.  

Julian: Yeah. If everythinggoes well, what's the long term vision for Fennel?  

Daniel: The long-term visionfor Fennel is monopoli. No, I'm kidding.

The long-term vision for Fennel. Thelong-term vision for Fennel is I genuinely think that like public companiesneed to listen to, to their investors a lot more. Yeah. So the long-term vivision for Fennel is like every person can start to put these shareholder votesforward to companies everyday people can.

The large public companies, this is whatI think you should do from an ESG perspective or a financial perspective, andfor the, and to give the public companies an easy way to talk to their retailinvestors, right? So you don't have to have all this like middle management andfinance doing the, talking for the clients, holding the influence.

Like yeah. I really think build thetools that make self-management easier. Let the fire grow.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I lovethat. I, I love, I love this. Next question, I, I found I call it my founderfaq. So I'm gonna hit you with some rapid fire questions and we'll see where weget. First question is, what's particularly hard about your job?

Daniel: Particularly hardabout My job is keeping Cool. Yeah. Constantly staying calm, constantlyunderstanding that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah. And knowingthat everyone that's working with you has the best intention. You haveconflicting interests.  

Julian: Yeah. For otherfounders coming out of, say, non-business or, or back backgrounds, say, comingfrom the academic realm who want to go into entrepreneurship or who, who, havea problem that they really care to solve what advice would you give them?

What would, what would be helpful fortheir transition to be smooth into or as smooth as possible into starting acompany and, and, and maybe building a team?

Daniel: Don't overthink it.Don't don't create a product. You can't build a business off of just like aproduct. Mm-hmm. , you have to, you have to think big.

Really get bigger than just narrowing itdown to single and don't wait. You're not gonna find the perfect area on thething that you want to work on. And everything falls into place and like it,you're gonna wake up every morning being like, should I do this? Should I not?You're gonna have the highs, you're gonna have the lows. Do it.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.What's what's something that you find yourself spending, more time on than you,than you expected to when you first started your journey?  

Daniel: I think this ties intothe first question, which is like talking to people. Mm-hmm. , right? So likeAking, sure. Everyone is unified on the vision, making sure everyoneunderstands like what we are all after, right?

Yeah. And just. . It's making sure theynever lose sight of that.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.Yeah. What, what's one way that you've found helpful in, in terms of gaining anetwork of other founders or other individuals building that you can lean on ormentors you can lean on for advice? Yeah. When you're in critical situations orjust, need a conversation to brainstorm.

Daniel: Yeah. So it's, it'sbeen harder with Covid, I will say. Yeah. Especially like, having started in,in the Bay Area, like it's night and day between the two. But there are a lotof social, like, slack channels, et cetera, that you can join and kind of seewhat people are doing. But you know, personally what's helped me the most isfinding credible advisors that really care about what you're doing.

And these are people that are in yournetwork. So, like for me, my first advisor was the EcoSys professor at Davis.Yeah. And professor John Rundel, if you're listening, shout out to you . And hehad a bunch of different people that he put me in contact. and every time youmeet one of these people that just like understands or you feel like you canlearn from, ask them to be an advisor. Yeah, right. And just like talk tothem.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. Theconversation piece and, and extracting that. A lot of people feel that theyneed to hide their ideas, but it's counter, it's counterintuitive to actuallymoving forward in a, in so many different. People don't, I think consider when,when they're thinking about building and thinking about building a communityaround them.

What's, what's a piece of advice thatyou would give founders? Something that maybe you, you know now, but somethingthat you've learned now but you wish you knew earlier in your career?  

Daniel: Yeah, I guess that. ,I guess that it's like, it's never gonna be perfect. Yeah. Right. So don't,don't try to make something completely perfect.

Don't try to definitely don't controlthe situation. You, when you hire someone and you keep someone on your teamand, and they're on your team and on your side, trust them. Yeah. Right. Givethem more autonomy. Let them in, because you're not gonna be able to do all ofthis alone.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. In, inrelation to that question, where do you find good people?

Daniel: Yeah, that'severywhere. . Yeah. People are everywhere, right? Yeah. And, and, and you'd besurprised, like just talking about what you care about rather than just talkingabout the product and talking about the company and keeping it boring. That'llhelp you find the good people better. Yeah. Right? So use that as a filter.

Use your passion. Talk to people thatshare similar passion.  

Julian: Yeah. What's, what'sthe way in terms of Fennel? What's, what's your business model? How do you makemoney? What are ways that we can know a little bit more about the innermechanics of the company and, and how you're able to not only give us insightsand data, but also allow us the ability to vote and trade and things like that?

Daniel: Yeah. So the way wemake money, it's a strong policy internally that we believe that the customersare not the product. Okay? So a lot of these other applications, they treat youlike the product. They sell your financial orders. They sell, they sell. They.. We never do any of that stuff. So we just charge subscription.

Yeah. We believe that We wanna be completelytransparent. Transparent with you. We have no conflicts of interest. The onlymoney that we're making is the money that you're giving us. Right? Amazing.Yeah. So that's kind of how we, that's how we focus on, on revenue internally.  

Julian: I always like to askthis next question to, because I love how, how founders extract knowledge outof anything that they ingest, but whether it was ear, early in your career ornow, what books or people have influenced you the most?

Daniel: Yeah, so, when I wasfirst trying to do the, the. Again, this was recommended to me by my advisor. Ithink it was called like the Art of the Start or something like that. Yeah,yeah. That was one that just basically gave me like a superficial 50,000overview of like all the stuff to look out for, all the stuff to be carefulfor.

And you think that they're all gonnacome all at the same time and like if they don't, that's not the case. Like I'mstill only now discovering some stuff later. So, that, that was very good forme. And then I listened to a bunch of Harvard Business Review. Audio. Mm-hmm.books. Mm-hmm. , so like at when I was in the lab working or when I was doingwhatever it might be, I would just listen to Harvard Business Review books andthat helped me learn quite a  

Julian: bit.

That's incredible. And, and I alwayslike to ask question. I know we're coming to the end of the show, but before wego into your plugs and your LinkedIns and your websites, is there any questionI, I didn't ask you that I should have or that you would've liked toanswer?  

Daniel: No, I think you'vedone like a really good job.

I think I've talked about the ESG, I'vetalked about the shareholder voting. I've talked about my journey andyeah,  

Julian: Amazing. Well, Daniel,I'm so excited to share this with our audience, but please let us know where wecan find you, where we can find not only Fennel the company and, and the, thetechnology and get involved with it but also you as a founder.

Where can we support you? Give us yourLinkedIns, your websites, all your. Go.  

Daniel: Yeah. So, where youcan find me personally, I spend a lot of my time on LinkedIn, so please reachout to me there. I'm always available by love talking to people. LinkedIn isjust Daniel Naim. You could search me on their n as in Nancy, a i m as in Mary.

I also have a Instagram, which I'm notthe best on Instagram, but I try to post when I can. I try to be cute with it.It's just Daniel W Naim, my last name. So, so that's where you can find me. Andthen you can find the company also on Instagram and LinkedIn and all thisstuff. We're just called Fennel on Instagram.

We're called We have a lotof cute and fun content. We're gonna start pushing out recently. So follow usand, and keep up to date there. And then on LinkedIn as well. Just, searchFennel. It's a financial company.  

Julian: Amazing. Daniel. It'sso exciting. Not only learning about your founder journey coming from physicsand, and something that was extremely theoretical into something that'sextremely practical and that a lot of users and a lot of people who areinvesting.

I think I'm really looking forward to,which is knowing more about the companies that we're working with and knowingmore about ways that our vote and our power can actually , be used and utilizedinto helping them make better decisions. So I'm excited to share this with theaudience, but I really hope you enjoyed yourself and thank you so much forbeing on the show today.

Daniel: Thank you, Julian.It's been a pleasure.

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