Julian: Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have Jean-Rene Boidron, CEO & Co-Founder of Kameleoon. Kameleoon is an optimization platform which helps marketing and product teams build better experiences and better products to drive exponential online growth.

Jean-Rene, I'm so excited to chat with you and, and learn about your founder's story and your journey. I know. You've been around the block for a few years and you have a lot of insight in terms of not only, current kind of tech and, and software and how companies are moving and, and what kind of revenue that they're trying to generate and the different ways that they're doing it.

But also you've had some historical background and experience kind of has, as you know it, and, and. Software has, essentially changed over the years and I would love to learn and jump right into it. Before we talk about Kameleoon, what, what's kind of the with Web three, just as a, as a interesting anecdote with Web three in this whole kind of new age of, of technology and web and experience, how much is this similar to what you've seen before with Web two and how much is different that you're interested, excited about in this new ecosystem of the.

Jean-Rene: Well, what I would say is that web three is, is a more complicated market. Yeah. Things are going faster, things are going also with more and more competition and also more and more money. Yeah. So there is always. Hunger for, change.

And the more we go, because, I'm, I'm like a vic around. I've been in the business for more than 30 years now. I see that things are always spinning, speeding up. So we have to keep pace with the speed of this whole thing.  

Julian: Yeah. And when, when you think about growth and, and revenue growth, even back in your career, what are some of the main drivers, or I guess, what are some companies suc that are successful doing in terms of their strategies towards revenue growth that you've seen kind of over the years?

Jean-Rene: Well, well first today you have to make bets. That's you had time to make before, and that's the, the, the real difference with before when you got a good. You have to put this idea of the market. We are, we are quick in the very same time. Well, the story you don't want to, you don't want to be, too early, in the market because otherwise you either want Yeah, educating the market, but you're not getting the rewards.

But there is no time to, to wait, yeah. So, I would say, the difference now with before is sure, you have to make a bet you have to be here match in advance. I guess it's one of the reasons why you get so many companies who are really heavily funded because, you want to take the, the, the bet real soon and not wait for the, all proof to be here to jump into the market.

Julian: Yeah, it's so fascinating thinking about timing and, and how crucial that is to a lot of companies. Not only just the building and developing, but you know, launching your product and, and kind of creating a really well-timed go-to-market strategy to really try to at least capture some users or get people, get using your product traction in that way.

And being that you, you've, worked with in, in so many different countries and in so many different or similar industries within those countries, how do for, for the audience members who don't. , how do the mechanics of launching a product differ between the different countries you've worked with?

Are the users differently or are human? Is human behavior fairly predictable in terms of how you, launch, launch a product game users start becoming getting user feedback, start adjusting, your product?  

Jean-Rene: Yeah. Yeah. It's a good point you're making here. Now you have to be global earlier.

So, the one. You could be a leader in the past, in one given country, and that was it. Today you have to be a, global player, so it's okay to be local for, three or four years, but then you have to be global. Yeah. And I mean, no doubt that all countries in the world now are much more receptive.

To what's going, what's coming from the outside. Like in Europe you take obviously France or Germany, everybody's looking at, what's going on in the other countries and they're much more open than it used to be in the past, in the very same time where you have to be global.

But well, the Euro motor, which is think global, act local because people will stay where they are and who they are. Yeah. And , we are in the US North America in the uk, Germany, France, Italy. I still, live certain freedom to the local teams because, you don't sell the same, the same way.

I should say. People are not dying the same way in each different country. If I take Germany for example they're the ones who like to open the hood. So, it doesn't really help to come and say, look, I'm the leader. I'm the number one, player. And believe what I say, I got these great technology.

They will open the hood. So you have to go through the tech thing and explain exactly what you do. Yeah, I'm not saying it's the best. To buy things, but that's the way they buy. They don't trust you just on your word. Mm-hmm. , they want to make sure that what you say is what is under the hood, as opposed to in the UK or in the US where the promise and where you wanna go is more important.

So it's not really what we have. It's, you what it means as well. Yeah. And once again, this is an important point as well. So people are buying, different way from one country. .  

Julian: Yeah. And when you're kind of, I guess, going through that process outside of having experience, cause say I was a founder, but with less of a tenure as yourself, where do I go to, find the information that will help me say, sell into or understand my buyer demographic more if I don't have that experience and, and if I'm launching a product globally the question was how, where do I go if I'm a founder, to get the information on where, to, where to identify my buyers or, or how the buying kind of personality is in those countries. .  

Jean-Rene: Yeah, I would say there are two ways to look at it. Either you are in your own country and you want to say worldwide, and you would've limited success anyway. Yeah. Otherwise you have to rely on, on, on locals. So, the best ones to sell to German people are, obviously you know Germans because they understand each other. So, it's better to have your team who's adapting to what you want to do instead of asking your customers or your, your leads, potential leads to adapt to what you're saying.

Yeah, so it's really, there are two ways you can stay, global and then you try to send local. And if your product is really. Maybe far ahead, anybody else, you may be successful, but today competition is fierce. So, you'd better rely on local teams. Yeah, yeah. And it's a question of really culture.

So, and, and you know what culture is. . It's minor differences, but these minor differences, make the difference at the end.  

Julian: Yeah, yeah. Thinking about this, this idea of optimization and thinking more in terms of, of Kameleoon and this platform mm-hmm. discuss kind of the, the, the testing process.

I think obviously a lot of founders know you, you must test. Whether it's testing, ABC testing, multiple ways to engage with or understand your customer or client. But what are some ways that people, or some mistakes that companies make when testing and, and how have you kind of addressed that with Kameleoon as a product?

Jean-Rene: Well, experimentation is really your culture. The number one mistake is to think that one, one size fits all. Mm-hmm. . And for example, we often get the question from our customer, oh can you give me, the good ideas, the others, which is a good way to look at it because it's, it's inspiration.

Sure. But it's very unlikely that, one test, even in the same vertical, in the same field, in the same business, one. On one website, the same thing is going to give the same result, to somebody else. So of course everybody wants to save time and, and have things on the shelf, but it doesn't work that way.

I mean, experimentation is really it. Ready, process. It's a way to better know your users on the website. Yeah, it's always users, related to your website and to what you are selling what you are offering to these to these users.

Julian: Yeah. And what are some of the best practices thinking about, if I'm a founder looking to test my product to my customers, and and I want to test, a few different variables, whether it's messaging or whether it's something on my website, positioning of certain, I guess assets to, to gain attraction or attention.

What are some of the best practices when thinking about testing and, and testing a hypothesis overall? And, and how do you formulaically do so so you get the best results or. More so, get the results that you're looking for. , get the data. Yeah. Yeah. Right.  

Jean-Rene: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a very good point.

I mean, it's actually, there's a, there's a methodology. You always have to go and start with the hypothesis. I mean, what do you want to reach, at the end and which hypothesis, which question does it relate to and what you wanted test. So you have to know what, which outcome you're looking for.

So you want, you want to know which result you wanna get. Not getting into, yeah. Well, I just want to test this thing. Okay. But what's the outcome of it? I mean, if it increases by 10%. Okay. But what's your final goal? Is it to increase retention? Is it to just push people to another page? Is it to the final conversion rate of your website?

Or is it, increasing the time that people are spending on, on the website? So, exactly as you were saying or implying your question. Yeah. know Writing the hypothesis at the beginning is very important. So documentation is not only a technical thing it's also a strategy. In itself.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And in regards to Kameleoon, what does it allow to do? Tell us a little bit about the, the, the product. What does the platform allow, the marketers, the product teams and, and even engineering, right? All those involved in this testing process. What does it allow you to do from a user standpoint, if I'm, working with the product and, and going through, going through the platform?

Jean-Rene: Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, the first, the first thing he does is we need to help. And that was really the beginning of ab tasting in the beginning of the year 2010. Yeah. Is really to help marketers to build better experiences. Yeah. At the time before I came here and I was running a web agency and I went through this process where, you're creating websites, you spend a lot of time through design thinking processes, but then when you release the.

Well, it's never as perfe perfect as you were expecting, so, right. You got, you had wrong good ideas or good wrong ideas. Yeah. So you had to, you had to change things. And in the past, changing these things on the website was ex extremely cumbersome. Taking a lot of time.

So, we appeared on market and when we were providing marketers was really this agility to make these. Really quickly, on the website and see which value valuation was actually the most successful. So we started like this until 2000, I would say 17 and 2018. Yeah. Experimentation was really the exclusivity of these marketing teams.

Mm-hmm. or conversion rate optimization teams, but, you've, we've seen these product led methodology appearing in in many companies and today you see more and more companies being product led. And product teams as well want to experiment. And the new trend is offering as well product teams the ability to test the feature.

That they are releasing on the on the website or on the product? Yeah. So to the ability that we were gi, that we were giving, the agility that we were giving to the marketers, we added these feature experimentation and feature management features, possibilities for product teams to also test the features that they're releasing, being able.

Test to push progressively or to roll back the features if something doesn't work well. And you were talking about engineers in one way or another. We are trying to offer, and that's our motto, if I can say, we always want to offer explanation faster, easier, smarter. But you need as well some engineering skills.

So we are offering the tools for engineers to go faster and to release in confidence. Yeah.  

Julian: I, I, as a founder myself, I'm just thinking in regards to when you're testing or AB testing a product or, or. And, and how does it plug into Kameleoon? Just I, I guess from more of a mechanical point of view in regards to like, yep.

It, it's difficult to say you host two websites without going through that platform. Say if you have Webflow, you can maybe AB test in there, but how have you been able to build a product that needs to then integrate into other products so well that, that you can do that testing and offer a similar experience but through do through two different vehicles.

It seems like a heavy. kind of a he heavy tech kind of investment. What was, how were you able to do that in terms of, being able to plug into other companies and products and, and to be able to test and, and collect data?  

Jean-Rene: Yeah, yeah. That's a very good question. Actually for marketers, there are two different ways of plugging to yeah.

The website of the customer, the first. is just installing the script. Sure. So you install the script in the tag management manager or, directly on the website so it can, it's a matter of seconds, right? Yeah. So you, you, you install the script and then this script allows you to make changes over the website.

Yeah, so installing the website itself, it's over the website. And that really gives incredible, agility to those who are, able to make these changes over the way, over the. At the very same time, adding scripts. Now many, many websites have a lot of scripts. It may slow down your website.

So there've been a demand to do things, what we call service side instead of being client side. Sure. So we also provide SDKs. So the, the beauty of the old stuff mm-hmm. At Camon is that the well we gotta take dna. So my associate who is actually the cto, build the solution and it built it in a very smart.

which allows us today to offer either ADKs or things through the, the script within a single platform. So, either you are product manager or marketer you can use one or the other options within the same platform. So you will share the same reporting, same data model, same interface same ways of of working with Advan Advantage.

Because obviously I'm not gonna get into the details here. Sure. But there are advantages of being cloud side, agility as I was saying. And there are advan advantages of being through SDK service side because you can do things more robust and more complex tests.  

Julian: Yeah. And what, what does it allow in terms of the speed?

You mentioned agility depending on how the product functions, but in the speed of understanding how your best, how the best version of your product I guess can be tested, but also can be identified through this testing process. How quickly are, if I'm a company working with Kameleoon, am I able to give my results and understand?

My, my key findings quicker than, doing it the traditional way, which is, I'm sure, setting up a timeline, putting out a certain productive feature, closing that timeline, reevaluating, doing the testing simultaneously seems like such a, an increase in productivity. What, essentially, if you have any numbers, what does that increase look like?

Jean-Rene: Yeah, well there are two things. I mean, there are two things in your equation. I mean, the first part is, how quick can we get a. Here you got statistical models here. So it depends on the, first of all, on the traffic you got on your website. Obviously some of the big brands, as soon as you have like, 5 billion unique visitors per month, then you can get results really quickly.

You need to have these statistical, confidence. So you know more and more people are coming, on your website. The more you have, the better it is. At the very same time, there's some new statistical. The Cupid at the moment. It's something that we implemented, so it, it speeds up, this process as well.

So, it's not the testing part, it's the statistical, way of doing things. So you have to be extremely rigorous here. But we put a lot of emphasis on, on data accuracy. So that's the first part of your question. The second part of your question is, what are your quality? Well, I will say, which kind of results can we.

Well, depending on the, how mature the website is and also on certain tests you can get, great results. So, you can have like mm-hmm , some, some websites experience 10%, 20% increase in conversion rates. But you know, it might be because the website was badly designed, at the very evening.

Yeah. So, but there's one thing to keep in mind of, when you experiment, If your test is a winning test, okay, it, it, it's a great news, but if it's a, a losing test, it's also a great news because you avoided, a failure and you know that what you thought could have been something interesting is not interesting.

Yeah. So the whole thing about testing is not to leave your intuition decide where to go because you can have a great intuition. Okay. Twice, but it's not a way of contacting businesses. You need really certainties about you know what you're doing. So instead of leading the decision to the higher paid person in the company or to your intuition where you rely on results, and that's the best thing.

To conduct a business in general.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And thinking about your business, something you mentioned in the show notes was that you, you've been able to be bootstrapped for, know such a long time. And I'm not sure if you're, you're looking to, to raise funding or not, but I'm curious on, on how you view the operational side and, and why bootstrapping is so important for companies.

And I guess also what would make kind of the, the need of capital in your mind to go and raise money and. , do you see that need in the next, however many years? Or is, is bootstrapping kind of the primary focus for, for your company?  

Jean-Rene: No, I mean, bootstrapping is only a mince. I mean, it's not a goal in itself.

Sure. I mean, I mean, obviously the fact that I had created a company in the nineties where, capital was not so water spread, , also has some influence. For sure. For sure. No, I. But what I see today and what, it always, puzzles me is to see some companies raising, lot of money.

And it seems like at the end of the day, the purpose is just to raise the money and, and, and not thinking about the outcome. Yeah. So you should always look at this as a means, not at the, the hand in itself. The reason why we are mainly bootstrapped, we raised, a little money, but not so much compared with.

It's because I always look at what the potential of the market is and what the size of the market is. Yeah. Always, goods and bads, pros and cons about raising money. Obviously pro is okay. You get the money, the count is you get somebody in your capital. So you have to, start dealing, with other people and, uh mm-hmm.

Sometimes it doesn't hand in, in good stories. And the reason why we, we remain bootstrap is that we are the specialist market. Mm-hmm. . And when you are on a specialist market in the B2 d. Well, we want to go fast, but we want to go fast in the right direction instead of, going fast in the wrong direction.

And we thought that, we had time to look at, our product, where the product fit was and we didn't, need. , investors for that. So we started in our, domestic markets. France then expanded immediately into another market which actually was Germany.

We were very successful there. And that's when we decided to raise some money because we didn't want to, lose pace. Sure. With the, the speed of the market. Mm-hmm. , so we turned into the UK and the us but we remained basically bootstrapped and, uh mm-hmm. , well, we succeeded.

So, I guess it was a good way of doing things.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of founders have, have echoed it. It's raising capital is tricky because sometimes. . Well, the best way to do is if you see a need, right? You have a specific product or vision or focus on, on what that capital is going to be used for.

But if you don't in particular, or have maybe a few different ways to use that capital, then it becomes a little bit more convoluted. You can, you can start to think about ways to spend money and, and multiple different avenues, and then you have investor pressure to, to then, use the capital that they've given you and, and it is this whole different dynamic and expectation.

But it sounds like from your point of view, It's very much so you work in that speed and, and it's not until something necessarily needs the interjection of capital to then, move, move, I guess the pendulum forward in that, in that way.

Jean-Rene: Absolutely. I don't have any religion about it. I mean, really to be clear, I think it's a, it's a great thing to raise capital.

Once again, if you know the market size, justifies it. Yeah, yeah. The wrong thing to. is to raise capital and giving high expectations to your next investors. You want everybody to win industrial. Yeah. So if your investors are not winning guess what happens? few years after.

So that's why you have to be careful and, and just do the right thing. Once again if it makes sense to raise $500 million, to go faster than the other, . But what I'm positive about is, when you are in the B2B sector, I'm not talking about B2C here, the b2b, well, sometimes you don't need things.

Money is not necessary. The number one thing. Yeah. Which will make you win.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And tell us a little bit more about, more about the traction. How many users do you have? How many companies do you have on Kameleoon and, and how many are working on the product? How much testing do you see? What's excited about the growth you've had so far?

But also what are you looking forward to in the future. .  

Jean-Rene: Yeah. Well, today we got more than 3000 websites working with command. So, the traction is really I mean, it is possible. We are driven by three things. would say the first thing is we are really selling differentiation. So, these markets, as competition, like any market, that's the beauty of the market economy market economy here.

So we are not the only one. But we are the only one to offer on their single unified platform both web and full stack and feature experimentation. So, that sets us apart. So we have advantages compared with others. Some others may say, it may be a go back, but the number one thing is cell differentiation.

You otherwise, if you're me too, it's complicated to have attraction or you get attraction with. So, the number, number number two thing is, is the word of mouth. Obviously we pay a lot of attention to our own customers. Making sure that they're happy with what we do.

So, we are, we gotta take dna. So, I would say that yeah, our customers are happy, but they're always your best salespersons. Yeah. So the best way to expand is to have other people talking about yourself. Yeah. To other people. And that's possible because we are in specialty markets.

So con rate optimization specialists, they talk to other conversion rate optimization, special, and the number. The third thing I would say is to be, Yeah. The way we expanded was not trying to be the number one or trying to be the best it was, and if you can be number one because some players in this market raised.

Numerous amounts of money, then you have to be smart. Yeah. So we are making smart decisions like in some countries we're working with the partners in instead of trying to do things by ourselves. So, it's these little smart decisions. Ah which is creating as well these these attraction on the market.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. What are some of the biggest challenges that Kameleoon faces today?  

Jean-Rene: Well, I would say it's the, it's really the challenge that every single company is facing, and either it is small or big. You always walk on a, on a, ridge line on the, on the thin line. Things go extremely fast, as I was saying, especially in web three.

So a new company may arise if you are too confident you may. Very quickly, the traction that you're having or your own customers are losing faith. So I will say basically you have to be paranoiac. So, I couldn't say that oh. These, these challenge that we have today, whether there's always a technical challenge, sales challenge, marketing challenge, and so on.

It's more to be always alert on what's going on. And well you see big companies. In a matter of, of month or years limited number of years pay attention, to be, to always push your, your strength and, and keep your strength, in this market.  

Julian: Yeah, yeah.

If everything goes well, what's the long-term vision for Kameleoon?  

Jean-Rene: Well, the long-term vision is we've seen experimentation has been a specialist thing 10 years. Really expanding more and more now. It's not, the exclusivity anymore of marketing teams. Yeah, it's really marketing, product teams, engineers people want to get involved into it in the very same time.

Explanation is a culture, so this culture is expanding. Some people who were in one company are moving to other companies and so on. So our vision is really to a low experimentation that offer the best experimentation tools to each team within the same platform. Marketers, engineers, quality teams, they're expecting different things, right?

So it's not the same tool for everybody. It's the same platform in which you will find the best. Experimentation, experimentation, tools for for each team.  

Julian: Yeah. I mean, yeah, nowadays, I love how you said as like, it's not, it's almost commonplace to be experimenting. If you're not as a founder or as a team, then you're, you're missing out on, on some, expedited or, or I guess, yeah.

I guess expedited a building or, or, or insight into where the direction your businesses go and, and. Speed is, is such a huge factor in terms of the success of a lot of companies. Right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I always like to ask this or use this next session I called my founder FAQs, but I'm gonna ask you some rapid fire questions and we'll see where we get there.

But my first question to you is, what's particularly hard about your job?  

Jean-Rene: Well, I mean, I see as a great job because, I see myself as a, conductor and I, I, I did play the piano, but now there's somebody playing the piano better me.

And same thing with the violin, same thing with every instrument. So, I the toughest thing for me is, making sure that everybody's really working as a team. Mm-hmm. , because the success of the company is really the brand between different, So, you have engineers, great, you got product managers, great.

You got salespersons, great marketers, persons. If they don't play together the same melody, then it's not gonna happen. Yeah. So the most difficult thing is, to keep everybody working, together. I would say, I don't know if it's difficult, but it's a challenge. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

And making sure that everybody's on the same line. I would add one thing which I often. Here, but is making sure that people are also repeating why we are different, what makes a difference. Yeah. Yeah. People tend to think that, oh yeah, I already say that in January, so, that's enough.

Yeah, no. Today with all of us we have hundreds of ways to divert our attention to something else. So you have to repeat again and again and again, to the market. What makes you. And you don't feel like you speak to yourself, you speak to somebody. You might have said this thing.

But you have to repeat seven times something, which you know, so that it gets into people's minds. Yeah. So it's making sure that everybody is repeating what makes us different and not think that everybody knows about it because we just wrote it on the website.  

Julian: Yeah, yeah, exactly. . What's what's a way that you've seen successful for maintaining, say, a fully dispersed kind of remote team?

How do you maintain culture? What advice would you give to other founders, who are working with a dispersed and and remote team?  

Jean-Rene: Yeah. What we do is I tell you, a lot of attention for giving news, internally. Yeah. And having everybody, sharing these things. I must say that with what happened with the, Yeah.

Three years ago now it completely changed this thing and it's much easier now than it was yesterday because yesterday people didn't really have necessary Yeah. The automatism, to go on internet and, look at what's going on in the company. Yeah. Today, many and many more things are being done online.

Yeah. Online. Yeah. So, you can keep company a. With people remote in, in many different places. Yeah. So, we pay a lot of attention to it, but I would say it's probably easier today than it used to be.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. If you if you weren't working on a Kameleoon, what would you be working on?

Jean-Rene: if I was not working on Kameleoon mm-hmm. , what, what I would be doing. Mm-hmm. , . That's a question I was not expecting. Actually. I'm so, completely obsessed with Kameleoon that I, I didn't ask myself, this question, so I would probably recreate a, a Kameleoon this. I don't know, but , yeah, junker here.

I don't know what to answer.  

Julian: Yeah, yeah. No, it's good. It's good. I like to ask that question, especially for founders because we're so entrenched in our idea and, and kind of in, in, in the mechanics of it, obsessive about it, but also sometimes it takes a second to, to take a step back or sometimes there's always one thing that, that may still be in your mind on, on which direction you'd like to go, but I always like to ask that.

Whether it's early in your career or now, what books or people have influenced you the most?  

Jean-Rene: Well, , there are many books. I mean, if there is one I would mention it's actually a book being written by your French.

Who was the very first to reach 8,000 meter peak. Yeah. Which was Annapurna so his name is Maurice Herzog And I guess, all countries have these kind of books where, the very first on, a certain peak. And the reason why I'm, I'm quoting this one in, I'm thinking about this one, is because it's such an incredible.

I'm a mountaineer myself. And but I started in nineties. It's a totally different story compared to the fifties. In this book, you see how resilient people could be and they're both, both the faith and also resilience and also intuition because the maps were not what they were where they are now.

They had to find the path by themselves. So what I love about these kind of books, To see how, these people made it, in spite of, the, the mountain of difficulties Yeah. That they had in terms of equipment the maps which were in inaccurate and so on. And it gives me, I would say, faith every day because it's not easy every day, but people have done things, a thousand times.

Yeah. You. Yeah. It gives you resilience.  

Julian: Yeah. I love the stories of resilience because I think it taps into the mindset and, and it really kind of helps you kind of come to a place or a center or at least a, a perspective, a lens if you will, of, of how to approach a situation. And it's, it's funny, whether it's business books or mindset books, founders have a really cool way to extract knowledge out of anything that, that they read or ingest.

So I always like to ask that question and see how you extracted your knowledge. . Yeah, that's a good question, right? Yeah, yeah. I know we're at the end of the episode, so I want to give you a chance to give us your plugs. Essentially tell the audience where we can find Kameleoon, where it could be a fan of you as a founder.

Give us your LinkedIn, your websites everywhere we can find and support what you're doing.  

Jean-Rene: Okay. So you can find us on our. So, www.kameleoon.com. You can find me on LinkedIn.  

Yeah. And you can, you can find on, social neighborhoods as well on LinkedIn. Of course we post on a regular. And Twitter of course, and all the websites which are specialized in experimentation and personalization. .  

Julian: Amazing. Gentlemen, I know we're at the end of the episodes here, but I'm so, such a pleasure only learning from your background, your experience historically, but also currently with what you're working on in Kameleoon and, and how you continue this testing process, which is exciting to see because I, I'm sure that that's helped not only your customers grow, but you as a company grow and, and reiterate that process.

So, yeah, it was a pleasure chatting with you and I, and I hope you enjoyed yourself on the show today. Thank you for joining us.  

Jean-Rene: Yeah, I did. And if I had, Advice to give to those who haven't been experimenting experimenting yet. Do it because aside from finding the right test, winning test or losing test, you will, better understand your customer.

Yeah. Better than your users, better know your users. And at the end of the day, the difference between somebody who is experimenting somebody who is not is the fact that the one who is experimenting is always taking the lead. He knows his customers better afterwards.

Julian: Amazing. Thank you.