Julian: Hey everyone. Thankyou so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have JacksonRodriguez, CEO and founder of 3RM, a firm building tools to discover, connect,and manage relationships across the Web3 ecosystem and beyond. Jackson, I'm soexcited to chat with you, and especially as Web3 is just booming and so manypeople are building either different.

Applications, building differentcompanies, launching protocols, tokenizing things, finding new things totokenize. It, this whole idea of relationships and community is continuous togrow. And it's almost like this ecosystem that's, we all kind of understand therules to it, but it's so dispersed.

And so I'm curious on how you're kind oftackling that problem and building tools to not only, manage thoserelationships, but. Connect others and, and kind of foster this community. Andif, if, I don't know if you have any numbers, but if you can share with us,tell me about the recent expansion in these communities and all the, the, thecompanies that are working on how, how much have you seen these communitiesexpanded in the last two years?

Jackson: Well first of all,thanks for having me. I really appreciate you taking the time to, to chat andlearn more about what we're working on. I think that, if, if your viewers havemade it this far, I think there's an interest in Web3, but I feel like it'sbeen pretty polarized recently I think that there's been sort of a a really bigchange in the, in the macro environment around sort of the sentiment. Web3. AndI think when we look at sort of that, that environment, that's kind of one bigthing that I think we're focusing on actively is, how do we sort of make thetechnology more invisible and still provide the same value and benefits of, ofwhat we're creating.

Yeah. What I tell people when we oftenrecruit them is that, Over the last two years 90% of the space, I believe wasreally full of, of price speculators, grifters, and just a variety of differentpeople who were not necessarily producing value or, or creating a long-termbenefit.

And I think the problem with that isthat it led to a lot of people being really sort of taken advantage of and notreally enjoying the space. And I. Been pretty detrimental because the remaining10% has built some really incredible technologies and, and innovations aroundsort of this new idea of, democratize sort of decision making, data ownership.

Really. Mostly decision making to behonest with you. And so I think what we're really focusing on is, how do we kindof create a landscape that allows sort of this technology to coexist? And it's,it's really funny when I, when I started this a year ago a little over a yearago, I, I was kind of laughed at, not really like directly, but more kind oflike scoffed in terms of the sense of like, oh, it's a bull market at the.

Everyone was getting rich, everyone wasmaking projects. Yeah. The wame attitude was huge. And so there wasn't really alot of care and attention for sort of what we're focusing on. And, and it'sunfortunate that we have a lot of attention on us now because the re relatedsort of crashing off the market has happened.

Yeah. That we've had to really kind offocus on like, sales operations for these decentralized c. And to really kindof get that 10% more, more on the focal point. And we're really focused more onthe, the B2B component of this. So, I was, I was talking to an acceleratoryesterday, I think it's called cipher Through, through Wharton.

And one thing that you know, I reallybrought up is that, Two, those Web3 products that we're building is that,there's, there's so much value created in terms of like the way you can sellthe benefit as opposed to technology. And it reminds me of one of the YouTubevideos of Steve Jobs getting roasted.

I think you can just YouTube it reallyquickly and, and someone at an open conference asks them, you've never coded,like, how come you can, sit up there and tell us what to do or how to go aboutit? And I think Steve had a, an answer where he was like, I, I, I wish we couldbuild things around this amazing technology.

But we can't sell 8 billion, 10 billionunits on just the technology that creates it. We have to focus more, the endresult of the benefit. And so that's what was kinda a message. And I thinkthat's kind of what we're trying to preach to a lot of these organizations isthat, how do you really kind of provide a direct benefit to the organizationyou're selling to as opposed to, oh, we implement this technology, here's howit works, here's all these things that tie into it.

Because I think it gets lost in a lot oftechnical builders. Yeah. Who create these, I mean, they've rebuilt the entirefinancial institutions right over the last year where you can completely bankand make derivative products and own sort of this financialization. So I thinklike when you, when you focus on people building that, it's definitely harderto make that translatable.

And I think even I struggle tounderstand what a lot of products do in a lot of cases. And so I think, yeah,the, the spaces change back to your original question, and it's really moved alot. I, I've only been in the space for about a year, but I think, even thenfocusing on. On that wave, it's been a real dramatic curve in terms ofinterest, engagement and, and sort of how people are involved.

Julian: Yeah, I mean, a yearin this industry, I mean, you're, you're a senior at this point with, with howquickly things have evolved and, and how quickly they continue to evolve and.I, I'd love to obviously, dive into your background and your experience becauseyou come with a wealth of knowledge from the growth standpoint.

But before we dive into that, I amcurious in terms of like this whole relationship management and fostering. Ilove the idea of focusing on the benefits. As you're, as you're, having theserelationships with with companies and other businesses and how do you go aboutthis?

How do you continue to re kind ofreestablish the target that you're aiming towards, even if you're, you haven'treached it yet because, obviously I think Web3 is, you have a little bit moreof a grace because it's a newer technology, so people are work activelyworking. , but in a traditional standpoint, people have expectations.

And how do you as a company kind ofmanage those expectations and I guess collaborate with your end user, your,your business or your client so that you can all kind of stay aligned on thatsame goal. What are some ways that we can do that as, as a company, as as webuild and, and manage our relationships?

Jackson: Yeah, that's a goodquestion. I, I would love to hand it over to you really quickly and get you toexpand on that just a little bit because I think I would love to kind of framesort of the answer around your perception of it, because everyone has adifferent perception in sort of the space. And so I'd love to kind of justquickly get your feedback on that question so I can kind of dance around thatand kind of fill it, because I think there's a a hue that everyone kind of goesinto in a tint, right.

Depending on how exposed they are. SoI'd love to kind of get your, your lens on that really quickly before I jumpin.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean,I've seen Web3 in, in the, the. As companies are partnering together in a fewdifferent ways, I've seen studios kind of help other companies launch protocolsor launch certain applications and kind of integrate them.

And we kind of saw it with Starbucksintegrating a crypto into their, their wallet and, and their reward system. AndI see other kind of use cases where they are offloading some important piece oftechnology. We had a guest on the show who was helping companies essentially.It was through the it was through some God, it was like a hash graph ledger,essentially helping code physical documents and, and, and pretty much timestampthem on the chain so that they can track them.

But these are all kind of solutionsbuilt around relationships that, that that they built with companies. So whenI'm looking at it, I'm looking at that kind of lens. It's enabling companies,whether they have the infrastructure or technology built in there, or. Ingetting them either on chain or building alongside with them to, create asolution that's gonna help benefit them for the long term.

Jackson: Yeah. So to thatpoint, right, when we look at that answer for a perfect example, that istalking a lot about, once again, sort of the technical feasibility and thetechnical aspects and these technical components of the way we get to the endresult as opposed to the benefits, right? And so one example that I think isreally interesting, That I've been diving into a lot more is NFT for tickets.

Mm-hmm. . And I saw on Twitter there wasan event like a, a really large con concert where every single person at thatconcert had to do an N F T to get their ticket. And what that does as abenefit, not rather the technology or the, the fact that it's non fungible,whatever is the actual benefit there is now the artist has a direct one-on-onerelat.

With every single person at thatconference based off of their wallet. Instead of going through a SeatGeek andsaying, okay, who bought, or a middle vendor, third party vendor who bought theticket. And then, trying to ask them for the info on that data and havingSeatGeek or that centralized NC own that data.

What happens now is that the artist isable to offer digital collectibles. The artist is able to offer sort of qa,the, the artist is able to really start to develop that relationship on, okay,we know this person attended. We have proved that they own this ticket. We haveproved that it wasn't obviously resold.

And so now we can offer sort of theseextra externalities and these other values. Beyond that. And so I think likewhen we talk about the value created, that's really the kind of really mostimportant piece that we're trying to bring to light is how do we display thebenefits of the technological innovation as opposed to just focusing on thetechnology used to get there.

Right? Yeah. And so when you talk aboutlike Starbucks now too, for example, right? Starbucks has, I think one of thelargest they just created so much money, like only don't bank from doing sortof the, the prepaid Starbucks, platinum. And now with these sort ofcollectibles, I saw an early like leak of the ui.

It really isn't that all that great. Andso I think we're, we're really struggling as an industry to focus on, like Iwas saying before, this enablement layer of the value created. I think thevalue created is, is really, really important that we're trying to sort ofbring in. So one, one thing that we do is, there's this really large discoveryproblem inside of Web3 and of itself.

And, I'll jump into this a bit more, butI think that problem. Becomes more ex exaggerated especially when you're notable to really focus on the value created, especially when you're not able tofocus on sort of like what additional understanding you have of how we're goingto improve a product or a user, how we're gonna make our user have, feelimportant, have an advantage, be a leader.

Sure. Or whatever those, those, those,those scenarios are. And so one thing that I think we, we lost the track on orlost the, lost the topic on as, as, as an industry. It's really sort of the,the benefits that are created. I was talking to a friend yesterday, about ZeroKnowledge proofs, and I'm not sure how familiar I, with zero knowledge proofsmm-hmm.

but because of how far the industry isskewed this amazing technology, the second it's told it's crypto, it's justimmediately, oh, we don't wanna deal with it. So what a Zero Knowledge Proofdoes is essentially it's able to verify the information of whatever you'retrying to check without exposing the actual data.

So an example would be if you'reapplying for a home and a bank said, we need to check to make sure you have,$700,000 worth of assets instead of giving the bank access to your retirementfund, your checking account, your savings account, your Roth ira, whatever. Youcan now through a zero knowledge.

Have that return saying we've checkedeverything. You have complete ownership of that data saying we've checkedeverything. There is proof that all those funds are in there and you're able togo forward with that transaction. And so, so that's what I'm talking about isthe benefits are so outweighed through or so undersold or undervalued.

And that's really, I think one thingthat we really want to try to bring to the next level, I would say. And levelbeing. Mm-hmm. . audience type, right. So I think like one thing that I'm areally big believer in is I, I really, really believe that the next wave ofcrypto adoption has to come through B2B enterprise.

And I think there's a long way to go inorder to make that happen because of how much, you have to interact with thetechnology, how uncomfortable it is to use. But if we're able to sell thebenefits way more in terms of what you're able to accomplish and receive from usingit outweighs that.

And so my hope is, is that at some pointpeople are willing to sit through some of this friction in order to get thosebenefits as opposed to focusing solely on the friction and running into thoseissues. And so that's why I wanted to ask you the question cause I felt like Icould do a good job of explaining that even in your answer.

Yeah. There's so much talk about thetechnological components or being time. What, but what is the actual benefitfor produce? Right? What, what, like what the, the cost and comparison. Arevery similar between web two and Web3. The difference is in how do we highlightthat benefit that web two can't compete with. Right.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. It's sofascinating kind of thinking from that layer because yeah, I think the kneejerkreaction is to go into technology and the implementation of it, but the overallbenefit really does outweigh, the current benefit of whatever you're using.Tell me a little bit about what inspired this, this idea, what.

3RMs to come about. I know you, youspent a decade in, in, in in growth and really just helping companies grow onall levels. But what inspired, what inspired this this idea, and now 3RM.  

Jackson: Now, the reason Ilaugh is because I think it's one of the most ridiculous founder stories thatI, I know of at least.

Where, where essentially I was workingfor this wallet company and the wallet was focusing on bringing Ethereum toApple Native products, to the iPhone, to Safari, having it integrate into the Applee. and, safari, I think at the time was, the second most or maybe the firstmost mobile web browser in the world.

And if you get that sort of adoption,then it, it'll scale out very, very tremendously to a global economy. However,so my job there was, okay, can I focus on this utility layer of decentralizedapplications to integrate? With our wallet, and if these decentralized apps canintegrate, there's more use for our wallet and we're able to grow.

So I was focusing on growing the DAPdecentralized apps, DAP developer ecosystem, and when I joined the space, I'vebeen doing BD for a long time. It's something I think I have a superpower outof just cold. Outreaching to people UN for infinitely. And I was figured, okay,the only way I know to assure fire away is to reach out to projects.

And so I was cold outreaching to Web3Pro DAP projects. And what I noticed was that there was a really dramaticbehavior change. Between web two outreach and Web3 outreach. Mm-hmm. in Webtwo. Identity of the individually reaching out to, is tied to formalemployment. You can find that person on LinkedIn, they usually have a businessemail.

That business email has a lot ofprotection around it, like spam link tracking, all sorts of infrastructurethat's built. Yeah. In Web3, those communication channels had moved to Twitter,telegram and Discord. There was no formal employment. You could be what's knownas contributor. You could open source your technology, people could build ontop of it.

And then there was also this sort oflack of. , any semblance of trust in cold outreach as well too. Because therewas fishing, there was spam, there was all these problems where people gettheir wallet drained so no one would be comfortable clicking a link or trustingyou, who you're reaching out to.

And so I was doing all of this outreachand I wasn't really getting anywhere. And so I ended up going to a conference,east Denver, Ethereum, Denver, that's coming up at the end of this month. Andwhen I was at that conference, I was able to meet a lot of the people I wasreaching out. . So when I returned back to San Francisco, a lot of the peoplewere then willing to meet and click on my links and be more involved.

And so what I realized at that momentwas that there was no way the space was going to grow if it was completelyreliant on crypto, Twitter and the conference circuit. That's just completelyunfair to people who don't have a following, who don't have vanity metrics, whocan't afford to go to conferences.

there's no way it's gonna create massadoption. And what had happened was, is that at the time, it was still, like Isaid before, a bull market. So everyone was getting rich from prices andspeculating and, and all these different directions. So no one really felt thatimportance or that need. And so what had happened was, is that I.

Had ended the, the contract with thewallet company and I just decided I wanted to be the best person in businessdevelopment Web3. So I built a database of 1600 Web3 organizations, and I spentthe whole month of months of February and March cold outreach into every singleone just to figure out how to do bd, figure out like what the best practicesare.

How to automate some, how to track it,how to manage it. So I got through that list. I ended up going to anotherconference in Amsterdam, Ethereum, Amsterdam, , and I rented a boat and I said,anyone on Twitter is welcome to join this boat. And so, uh, if someone just sawit on Twitter, he came on the boat and he said, Hey, I, I like this idea.

I'll help you build it out. Let's giveit a run. And so he happened to live on the same street I do in San Francisco?No. So he flew back here. We built, we built our, our product on a no-code appcalled Bubble. Yeah. So he would build it on. and then I would reach out and Iwould just try to figure out how do we keep growing this product?

And so what happened was is we builtthis network of about 70 organizations, and every week we would just do manualintroductions between the people because that would solve the discoveryproblem, the outreach problem, this trust layer. Simultaneously, we're buildingthis crm. Where we took like a very, very web two interface and design.

We stopped a Web3 sticker on it andcalled it good. And so we ended up going to, once again, the conferencecircuit. We went to Consensus in Austin. We are pitching everywhere. We gotmore validation, more direction, and then we go to NFT n yc and we got morevalidation, more direction. However, at the end of Nft nyc, we looked at eachother and we only had $70 left between the two of us.

And so we were like, okay, I guess wecan't get back to California. Let's just try to fundraise. And so we ended upsneaking into a crypto coworking space called Empire Dow every day for 40 days.And a buddy of ours let us sleep on his apartment floor. So every day for 40days, we were just in this, this coworking spot.

And then we'd go back home and sleep onthe floor. And we just did that every single day to ride pitch bcs. And then Itell my co-founder, Hey, here's all the improvements we need to. He'd stay upworking all night on them. And then I would pitch the whole next day, and wewere around the clock until we finally closed out the round.

I called my mom and I said, okay, I havemoney coming in. Please can I get a loan to fly back home? , I came back toCalifornia and that's where the, the story kicked off. And so it's a really,really sort of story of just determination, I guess, and just kind ofconsistently iterating until we found that that narrative.

And I think the, the, the final piece ofthe story is that once we got. We tore down that entire product. We tore thatentire direction because we, we believe that we were indexing too much on, likeI said before, that web two component. Yeah. With Web3 slapped on it, asopposed to building into the infrastructure that's already created.

And so now we're building into the spacea bit more and being more agnostic around the technology that's created, butthe value that's providing. And so we've launched a Telegram crm. That broughtin about a thousand organizations willing and ready to use it right away. Andso now we're kind of figuring out a roadmap beyond there to create that valuewithout focusing too much on the technology.

Julian: It's, first of all,yeah, wild story. It, it's definitely reminiscent of early Silicon Valley,Dave. I think, if anybody buys a rights to it, you should, you should probably trademarkthose. I think it created a pretty good HBO show, but two things really come tomind. This whole, I think all these no-code platforms are really allowingfounders to, to accelerate a certain technology or growth or an idea to be ableto iterate it.

And so, One without, a lot of the adventof like, bubble I, I've had a few clients who worked off a bubble and startedexpanding upon that idea. One, what do you think in terms of the accelerationof companies and products coming out from these note codes are we gonna see inthe next few years?

And then two my follow up question.Actually I'll, I'll wait on my follow up question cause it's a little bit moreexpanding, but just, just as a sidebar what do you think the industry is gonnasee from all these no-code platforms? It's like the backend is now goingno-code versus, previously it's been all front end and, you can do a webpageand everything like that.

But with this whole layer, how quicklyare company's gonna get online and, and how quickly are ideas gonna start?Going through rounds and going through iterations of, of processes.  

Jackson: Yeah, it's funny. SoI'm gonna share my screen just cause I still have the bubble app up, so let meknow if you can see it here.

So this, I mean, it was, it wasdisgusting as you can see. Like everything on the header has nothing attached.There's nothing going on. We were just able to, we had dropdowns and then Ithink you can see all the pages we created. So, oh boy, you go and we've gotlike, all these just really, really terrible views.

And I think, I think you know what thebe, yeah. Like this one is really, really beautiful as well. See like thesecolors we had, right? So there's. Nothing, nothing creative to it whatsoever. Ithink what what bubble allowed us to do was that it allowed us to like iteratevery, very, very quickly. So we were able to put this together in a matter ofmaybe, I don't know, A week and a half. Yeah. And so from there we were able toadd features incredibly quickly.

We were able to validate the idea veryquickly, but when we wanted to scale it and turn it into a real product, therewas so much technological. That we were facing where we had to basically scrapit and start all over. And so I think what Bubble does really, really well isit allows the idea to come to fruition.

Whether that's not a completed idea,whether that is the completed idea, whatever. But I think bringing that idea tofruition does so much more for a founder to be able to test and experi. Yeah.What I learned though, as a double-edged sword from that is that wheneverything's accessible, you really lose focus in terms of the most importantthings or the value or the, feature set that's super important and reliant thatthese teams need.

And so it's great to have a bunch ofusers or theoretical users claiming, oh yes, I would love this. We could usethis, we could use that. And then you looked at our usage analytics. None ofthem were using anything cuz we were a mile wide, inch deep. We did a bunch ofthings terribly. Yeah. And so I think bubble is.

For quick iterations, building outproducts. I've seen some products built full scale, but when you templatizethings, it's kind of like that quote from syndrome when everyone is super, noone is from the Incredibles. And I think that's kind of the issue that I'mnoticing with that product in particular.

And, and no code products in, ingeneral. And I think, I built our website in an afternoon from, but Webflow,once again, it, it makes people very quick to do things and test ideas. But Idon't know that it's really great for scale and, and the next direction.Bringing a company to a, a large market, getting the value of this is secure.

This is, what we're doing. Yeah. We havea lot of support behind us, but it did a great job getting us from zero to oneto provide the narrative, the direction, and a lot of user feedback. Yeah. I,yeah,  

Julian: I love your kind ofcurrent kind of, I, I, not problem, but I, I think. You have so many resources,you've made so many connections.

And typically it's a lot of, a lot of itis the other way around. Somebody builds this brilliant product, has an idea,ships it out, and then starts to iterate and perfect that product. But it seemslike there's so many directions you can go. You've built such a large communityof a traditionally dispersed community because like you said, there's not atraditional way to communicate.

Where do you go from here as a founder?How do you kind of extract the components you should be working? And then workon those in tandem with trying to balance out all the other pieces ofopportunity. What advice, would you give to other founders who are in asimilar  

Jackson: position, hire aheadof product?

, I think, I think that I'm a, I thinkthat I'm, I'm a very unique founder in the sense that I don't have much productbackground, but I believe that, The tenacity that I carry as a founder is whatgot all the information needed to make those decisions. Yeah, so one thing thatI think was really complimentary for our team going forward when we broughtthem all in, we had everything in place, was that there were so many customerconversations that I had had that I think it's really important that whateveryou create or whatever you do, until you show that to someone and until youtalk to someone.

It doesn't mean anything. It couldn't bejust a gut instinct until you have tangible proof saying yes or no. My problemwas I didn't record any of that proof. So I had a product, had a hard timegetting up to speed because it was all in my head. Yeah. And that's a chaoticplacement of itself. And so I wish I had more foresight to say, here's exactlywhat these calls are saying, cuz I was on calls.

All the time. I had so many calls at thebeginning of this because I wanted to constantly show people in order to gettheir feedback, get their iteration, and I think when you come to aconversation with a lot of vulnerability Yeah, and a lot of open-mindedness tofailure. Yeah. It makes those conversations way more.

Valuable because people are notice thatand they're willing to be delicate. Yeah. But they're also willing toparticipate and give their time to help someone who's, who's really trying.Yeah. And I think that's a big difference, is really trying. Some projects comeout and I don't think they. Spend as much care and one-on-one time.

It takes a lot of time. I mean, I cannotemphasize how many calls, but those connections were really valuable and, andvery, very strong because that time spent, as they consistently saw us improve,closed around hire ed team, we we're getting more buy-in and there's a lot moreflexibility. And so one thing we were worried about at the beginning was branddamage from all of that work.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And I think what itdid instead, Really create sort of this brand camaraderie around what we werebuilding, where we're going. And we had to be more careful once we startedhaving more of a complete project. But from that bubble component, I thinkthat's the biggest thing, is really being able to connect and show those ideasand make sure that you are talking to people about them as  

Julian: much as possible.

Yeah, yeah. And tell us a little bitabout, you, you have a bunch of people on this within your community, you'velaunched a Telegram community and, and now you're working on the product.What's gonna be exciting about this next stage of growth for this.  

Jackson: For this year, that'sa great question.

For this year, I think that we're in fora very unique. Position positioning with within the market. So we were called3RM because when I was leaving the Amsterdam conference after a week inAmsterdam the domain was 99 cents. And so that's why I bought the domain . Nowwe're still 3RM.

I don't really know if that fits sort ofthe brand message and what we're trying to, to accomplish, but essentially wehave this product that has. Connotation around it from people who quickly viewit. They have expectations immediately from this web two perspective, fromtheir background, from wherever they come from.

And we're trying to break that a lot inthese onboarding calls. And so one thing that I do as a founder is I, I'lltypically do every process completely manually at first and then figure out howto give it off to the team. Yeah. And so I onboarded the first 150organizations that we have. I was able to really know how to onboard properly.

How to set expectations, how to do allthese things, right? And so now we've hired a customer success person. Who cancome in and take that data and, and, and really focus on that transformation.And so I wish I hired that person a little bit sooner cause I had to learnthrough trial and error. But I do think though that what happened from that,that was positive is that we really learned that there's a, yeah, really largeadoption gap in terms of the sales operations that Web3 companies have.

There is no tooling built for them.There is no way for them to track conversations. There is no way for them tobring siloed, private conversations to a team view and all that's very statusquo in, in web two. And so what we're really focusing on is how do we use thattechnology and enable a technology that's been built, build that bridge andallow people to have a familiar interface, learn the so adoption curve, teachthem operations and get them up to speed.

So I think that's kind of our big focusfor this year. I know we've got a lot of really exciting product releases and areally great roadmap and all these things that can go on for hours. . But Ithink the core focus right now is really just getting teams to a status quo interms of understanding, here's how you run a business, here's how you do b2b.

Here's how you, you attract theseopportunities. Yeah. And here's how you are able to navigate this space. So Ithink that's really kind of the core focus.

Julian: That's incredible. Andwhat are some of the biggest challenges that 3RM faces today?  

Jackson: Where do I begin? . I,I think that one of the challenges that we're constantly running into is, LikeI was talking about before, this perception of the decentralized internet ofWeb3 of this direction and the space that we're facing right now, we'restarting our project primarily focusing on Web3 to Web3, and that's great.

That's, very, very, Addressable. It'svery easy. The big challenge that we're facing beyond that is how do we bridgeweb two and Web3 together, and then how do we bridge web two and Web3, Web3outwards? And I think that's gonna be a lot more difficult, especially when wewere talking earlier about selling the benefit as Provo, as opposed totechnology.

There's gonna be a really large liftthat we're gonna have to do. With the companies that we have in sort of thisnetwork and this platform to help them and, and, and make those bridgespossible without having to require them to download a brand new tool set or, orlearn something entirely new. And so my hope is, is that we'll be able to dothat in a very thoughtful way with the technology that we build that makes itreally.

easy to manage your network, connectwith new projects, sell those results and and scale. But that challenge isobviously a lot easier said than done when you focus on, okay, we've got thislarge B2B problem right now that we have to address first and foremost, andthen figure out those specific issues around that.

Julian: Yeah. And ifeverything goes well, what's the long-term vision for 3RM?  

Jackson: Oh, so the long-termvision, I took a deep breath when I say this. The long-term vision is thatthere's a sales infrastructure that's built for web two technologies, and thatsales, that web two infrastructure is obviously why there's a, the biggestbuilding in San Francisco, that Salesforce Tower and why it's so important.

And one thing that I think we do really,really well is that, Tend to focus on how do we consistently innovate ourproduct in pioneer direction as the space is unfolding as opposed to optimizingfor the current solution that currently needs now. Yeah. And so the big visionis that if we can replace that web two infrastructure where it's siloed, it'scentralized user data is owned by companies, it's.

Sent across a variety of differentplatforms. Yeah, you can be tracked without knowing it. That's sort of gianthalf pages of cookies when you go to a new company website, . And if we cansort of transition that with the technology that we've seen being created intosort of this own ownership, organization ownership and having those, those twoco-exist, I think we can make something that's really exciting.

And so what we're really trying to focuson is the big vision is how do we replace the current infrastructure that'sbuilt with this better solution? How. translate that better solutions. Yeah.People understand it very clearly. And then how do we make that infrastructurestack become usable for everyone, whether or not you're Web3 native or not.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I lovethat. And, and I have some rapid fire questions that I'd love to ask you and,and I'm, I'm very curious to hear your answers. Sure. What's particularly hardabout your job?  

Jackson: Not having two of me,I think that's probably my first answer. Like I said before, I do all the.Things manually.

So last week, last two, last last month,I sourced 400 candidates. We hired four of them. I onboarded 150 organizations.I ran the team, I went out to England and that was all just in a month'swindow. And so once now those processes are done, I'm able to hand it off, butthat takes up, obviously my calendar's been nuts.

Yeah. So I'm happy about that. Butdefinitely the amount that I tend to like pioneer. Back off. And so I thinkthat's the difficult part is pioneering first and seeing how we need andoptimize and remove myself.  

Julian: Yeah. If, if timewasn't a quality that was or time wasn't something that was limited, what wouldyou prefer?

What would you like to spend more timeon? Whether it was personally or professionally or, or within maybe dailytask.  

Jackson: I think that I'd beconnecting with people. I really enjoy the calls. I really enjoy taking time tochat and meet people. I think it's just incredibly draining, especially whenyou're in a global market like crypto.

Mm-hmm. and crypto is all over. So mycalendar is generally open from 6:00 AM till about 11:00 PM and because thathits, apac, it hits Europe. Everywhere. And so times roll. And so I had a callyesterday, it started at seven 30 and I had a call at 10 30 at night. And so Ienjoy those calls, but I tend to get very exhausted by the end of the week.

And then my weekend is really justvegging out and doing nothing because of how difficult that is. But I wish Icould do more of that and and stay more involved.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I lovethat. And is there any, maybe one or two, what piece of advice comes to mindfor a founder, say, who was in an earlier position kind of building a product,building a company.

Looking to give traction, what piece ofadvice would you give them? Something that maybe, you know, now that you wishyou learned earlier?  

Jackson: Just talking topeople. Yeah. I, I cannot emphasize the benefit of making the connection. Ithink that connections have become very transactional, especially online.

And I think when connections becometransactional, it's a large reason I'll probably never make a CanBan board inour, in our tool, because I think it makes transaction, it makes everything waytoo focused on, optimized on, on, on the immediate result as opposed to thelifetime value. And so one thing that I'm, I'm super grateful for is goingthrough all those calls.

Showing the product consistentlycatching up with people and asking them for their feedback and opinions becauseit allowed very quick iterations. Yeah. And allowed a long-term relationship.And knowing that what we were showing at the time was never the end result. Wewere never in a hurry to close. We were never in a hurry to get money.

Yeah. Like it allowed that, that relationshipto foster. So showing people, but knowing that that emphasis on showing them isnot really to get something done in that moment. It's. Harvest thatrelationship, showcase your building, showcase your trying, showcase thatvulnerability and develop that relationship and, and, and stay with it overtime.

The other thing I think I would add toois, is make sure to follow up with people in whatever capacity, however youwanna organize your relationships. I think it's imperative that you circlearound when you have nothing you need with people, because that also does a,that all goes a very long way.

Yeah. In developing relationshipsonline.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. No,that's, that's a great point. If you weren't working on this, what would you bedoing?  

Jackson: I mean, if I could doanything, I'd be the starting point guard for the Sacramento Kings, but I haveno basketball talent. But I think if I wasn't, I, I don't think there'sanything else I could do, just to be honest.

I think it's funny when I talk to myparents about this, I think that's the one thing that I, I share with themthat, I was a. I don't wanna say frustrated cause it's the wrong word, but as akid I was always doing entrepreneurial endeavors. Like every chance I had to doa new entrepreneurial idea, I would like, I think in third grade I made.

School-wide newspaper and just handed itout. And then like in fifth grade, I did like a president of the playgroundelection. Like in sixth grade it was like lemonade stands car. Up until highschool I was always doing things like, one of my first projects was this blogthat I created called Hella Dad.

Cause that domain was 99 cents. Then wewould arbitrarily rank things on how dad they were as a joke, and we werereviewing pop culture. They end up getting me a one-on-one interview with PeteDavidson. I got clearance to like basketball games, all these events. And Ithink like that's, I was always made to be in this role and do this position.

And I think that's the one thing thatwhere my parents really wanted me to go to school, get an economics degree.Yeah. Fill in, have a, the traditional status quo of life. I felt like thatwas, that was the one thing that I was like, ah, that was always made to be inthe spot in these shoes.  

Julian: I, I love that. Is, isthat still is that still running? The how?

Jackson: No, I wish, I wish, Iwish that was the most fun. I think I had doing any project. Yeah. I got like14 people just in various colleges. We'd all covered just whatever we wanted tocover. Everyone would post once a week. And so we were doing album reviews.

We were doing pop culture reviews, memereviews, and I think at one point we had like 10,000 monthly readers justtuning in. We built an iPhone app that allowed you like, To scroll. And like Isaid though, I think it was really funny too cuz when we interviewed PeteDavidson at like the San Jose Improv, we had like no jurisdiction getting inthere, but because our site looks good, they were like, come on down.

And so we got a oneone with them and hehad no idea why we were, why we were supposed to be. He's like, whatpublication are you from? Like, don't, don't even worry about it. Like there'sno value. You didn't even know value out of this. So that was really, really afun time. I wish, I wish I could still do that.

That was, that was really cool.  

Julian: Yeah. Oh God, thatsounds. I always like to ask this question for selfish reasons, but also for myaudience it, whether it's early in your career or now, what books or peoplehave influenced you the most?

Jackson: Ooh. One book I'mreading right now that I know of my team is gonna listen to this. They're gonnalaugh, but it's called Crossing the Chasm. I think that's a fantastic book.I've had a really difficult time reading business books because I feel likewhen I read from an individual's perspective on how they did things, it's verymuch not applicable to this ideology of how you should do things.

Like I read the four Hour Work week incollege, and I remember being like, there's no way I could ever do this withoutthe resource. I understand. It's just impossible. Yeah. And. . I really likereading books that are more like like broad ideas. And I think Crossing theChasm does a very good job of, of, of explaining this high tech marketingadoption curve, how to get your product out and how to cover, the basis ofcreating a new, innovative technology.

And so I think that's a really greatbook. I think one, one person or, or one group of people that I think is alsoincredibly helpful is, is my girlfriend's family is both entrepreneurs for verysmall businesses. And I think when I, when I met. They were very, very greatabout giving a lot of insight into sort of the highs and lows of Yeah.

Innovation and not tying your identityto work. And I, I think they were very influential on, on how I look at sort ofmy own self worth, especially when things aren't going well and how I feel likeI'm not tied. Alpha value as a person to the success of this project. And I thinkthat's a very freeing feeling to have.

Yeah. It makes you the best work comeout from, from that time. And I think they really taught me that a lot. Andthat's something that I've, I've had to grasp with over the course of buildingall the time and trying different things. Well, I don't build, but, but tryingall these different things. And so I think that they were, they were very, veryinfluential to be able to have a really great resource to learn from and talkto and, and be able to just vent and be open about things.

And so, They're always very, veryinterested but very much like the great, great North Star for me to have anunderstanding of like how to balance like family and just your personal lifeand then also this thing you do that's 40 hours of your week. .  

Julian: Yeah, I, that lastpoint, I think for, for me at least, was, was the most, I think.

I don't even know. In enlightening slashrefreshing slash just like it took the pressure off of, of working onsomething, which a lot of founders may learn earlier or may not, but I thinkit's the most powerful piece, and you're exactly right, is extracting your,your personal ego or identity to a project.

A lot of founders view these projects asthings that need to be done in the world, and they're just a person to do it inthat moment in time. And, and working through that and, and being diligentabout it, staying medium or even keel in terms of the, the feedback that youget, whether positive Create such a, such a productive, I think, ecosystem whenyou're, when you're tackling a project or, or a problem.

And I love that piece. I'm, that's,that's exciting that that's what they shared with you and, and that you tookthat from, from them. And I know we're at the end of the episode here and I'vehad such a pleasure chatting with you and I think we could go and uncover somany different topics and go so many different ways and tangents.

But last little bit is tell us where ouraudience can be a fan of, of what you're working on crm, whether your websites,whether. What are your plugs? Are your LinkedIns your discords? Where can wefind you ? Where can we find your, your channel and where can we be a fan?  

Jackson: Yeah, Twitter 3RM_cois the company.

I'm zero X Jackson underscore. Andthat's basically where I live. I love Twitter. I'm on there all the time justcheering ideas and posting and I would say go there. That's the best spot tobe.  

Julian: Amazing. Amazing.Well, Jackson, it was such a pleasure chatting with you, and I hope you enjoyedyourself on the show, and thank you again for, for joining us today.

Jackson: Yeah. Thank you.Appreciate it. Have a good time.  

Julian: Of course.

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