Julian: Hey everyone. Thankyou so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have GioraEngel, co-founder and CEO of Neosec. Neosec is reinventing application securityand is the intelligent way to protect your APIs from business abuse and data theft.Gira, thank you so much for joining the podcast.

Like we were talking about before theshow, so fascinated. As technology is expanding and growing and people areusing different pieces of technology to plug into one. This whole idea aboutsecurity around the APIs that you build and build with technology is sofascinating because I think it's something we take for granted.

It's like, using this tools and, and allthis all these features and accessories, but making sure that yeah, weunderstand the protection we need behind them. So I'm really excited to diveinto that topic and, and your background. But before we get into all that, tellus a little bit about what, what are some of the craziest or maybe the mostrecent security attacks that, that, left an impact on you and, and thebusiness?

Giora: We all see securityattacks in the news and and every, every company today exposes their corebusiness to the outside as part of their business process. I mean, there'sreally no other way to, to do business today. I mean, if you're, even, ifyou're in healthcare, even if you're in any type of business everything needsto be exposed, to, to your end users to your end customers or partner.

Through implications and different typesof, of integrations. So most of the attacks that we see today are actuallyattacks on these, like, on these types of infrastructure. And I think. You knowwhat, what's most shocking is that, how it changed over, like, the course of,let's say, five years or so.

If, if you asked me five years ago, mostof the attacks would be like more infrastructure attacks. Like, people wouldwould compromise an employee. Endpoint and try to do some natural movement andall that. I mean, we, we all spoke about APTs at the time, and all of a suddeneverything changed.

Then, everything is, is directly on, onthe application framework. So, like, recently we heard T-Mobile, we heardPayPal. We heard like, all the big names kind of repeat themselves. Like almostevery year they have a, like a new, a new attack. And another thing that isalso shocking, but actually less known I think, and that's kind of related toour space.

a lot of attacks are actually notpublished. Meaning that, to date it's not necessarily either have a big breachor, or like, or, or no breach. There are many cases where people abuse yourinfrastructure or, or maybe still a smaller number of records and then youactually are not obligated to report it.

Yeah. So we also see a lot of that.

Julian: Wow. It's incredibleto hear about the evolution of the, the cybersecurity attacks and, and how itwas infrastructure kind of, now it's built into the application framework. Andhow does that, how is it built in? Is it built into the, the code that's thenintegrated into, your platform or your system, or is it a little bit moresophisticated and is it an equal, is it an equal amount of threat to you as acompany, or is it a little bit more manageable?

Giora: I think today everybusiness is a digital business in a sense. And I think, people need to to thinkabout security differently. I mean, security in the past was more related tothe infrastructure. It was more about your data center, your employees devicesand and so on. And, that is still important even though data centers are notreally like, common thing anymore.

We have some legacy data centers. I knowpeople don't deploy new things in data centers. And all of a sudden the, themost of your infrastructure today is actually, typically in the cloud and it'stypically in the form of, of microservices and yeah, applications that youbuild.

Now, it's interesting because it's nolonger just security securing the pipes and the, the. Servers and so on. It'sreally securing your business directly because, these applications are reallythe, the business itself. So yeah, a lot of security things need to reinventthemselves because, they, they were used to focusing on, on infrastructure andthey have maybe more experience there.

But really what, what's required todayis, is to focus on, directly the business applic. . Now I think, with thesechallenges, I mean like on one hand there is a lot of opportunity to build,digital businesses on, again, on every industry. And naturally there's, thereis more security challenge, but security is very different than it used to be.

I mean, people don't wait for thesecurity team anymore. People build these applications because that's a poorbusiness. The security team needs to find a way to to protect thebusiness.  

Julian: Yeah. Is, is, is, whenwe're thinking about security and we're thinking about you, you talked aboutthe security thing the security team kind of needing to help create the, the, Iguess maybe it's boundaries or, or maybe it's infrastructure needed to, toreduce the amount of threat.

Are people moving too fast? Is securityteams needing a longer time to integrate the technology needed to keep thingssafe? Is there a solution out there that essentially is. . I, I guess, speed upthe process to create a more secure infrastructure than to build theseapplications on.

Where are we currently at and, and wheredoes Neo set kind of come into place?  

Giora: So first of all,people are moving fast and nothing is gonna change that I, I mean, I wouldn'tsay too fast. I think, the moving as fast as the business, And they have to, Imean, there's no other option.

First you need to, to build yourbusiness, then, you need to also think about security. But, building the, thenext product capability is always the, the important thing for any company. Andin order to cope with it, I mean, the security teams need to, to have adifferent approach instead of being a gate.

And, kind of blocking the process orstopping the process. They can't do that anymore. It's not relevant. They alsodon't want to be in that position. They, they need to find another way to doit. And it really starts with, first, it starts with, with visibility. Like alot of other security problems.

And this is also where we can can startto help. I mean, it, it starts with, being able to see all these APIs thatyou're exposed to, the outside, all, all the different interfaces and so on.Then, finding vulnerabilities on these interface. And lastly, making sure thatthe use of, of these APIs from all these external parties and even internalparties that that use is, is done correctly and, and and not, not really in a,in a way that abuses the system or causes, data to go out and so on.

But I, I think the basic thing is, is tounderstand that the new business is actually, new digital business alwaysexposes itself to the outside. It's part of like, it's an inherent part of, ofthe the. . So we we're not gonna stop that. But, but we do need to to be ableto see what's going on and, and to protect that.

Just maybe adding, adding two more wordsabout APIs. APIs are kind of the new. Network, so to speak. So, so APIs kindconnect between microservices internally and also enable external parties toconnect to your services, either through a browser or web application or mobileapplication, or, or directly.

In a machine to machine type of thing.So, so in the end of the day, I mean, these APIs are the new network. Andagain, it's on one hand challenging because there are so many of them and, theydevelop so fast. But it's also an opportunity because they're much morestandard than, the way that we used to do connectivity in the past.

And, there's a, there's a hugeopportunity here to, overcome that visibility.

Julian: Yeah. And what aresome of the negative consequences to you? You mentioned earlier that theremight be some small amount of files that are being breached or, or beingstolen. Is, is it, is it more so of a ransomware play or people actually takingsay, I, I guess from an end user standpoint, valuable identity pieces ofinformation or financial pieces of inform.

What are some of the negativeconsequences to have APIs that have been vulnerable or have been have beenaccessed?  

Giora: So it's not likeransomware and I'll, I'll explain why. So, ransomware is it's an attack that,that shouldn't be there anymore. I mean, it's it's, it's only there stillbecause, people are are, are not using the, the infrastructure correctly.

They it, it's there because, people havelocal files on, on their machines. They have like, local. , this is really athing of the past. They're unfortunately a lot of organizations that, thatstill, have that cause of, whatever legacy systems that they.

So, they, they definitely need to lookout, but this is really an attack of the past. We're not going to see that,that type of attack rising in the future. Cause it's just not relevant. Like ifyou're using modern infrastructure, you don't have that problem. Yeah.

Instead, these APIs are actually thecore business. I mean, if Fran is trying to, to attack your computers, yourservers, like, that your infrastructure in. , imagine something that is farworse. I mean, you have you have your, your core applications that hold, allthe patient data, for insurance company or the insurance claims and, andnational transactions.

Like, really the core business itself.And these, these these APIs that these interfaces that, handle the data canactually move money from one account to the other. They can file claims theycan. They can create all sorts of things that are, the business itself.

Now imagine that those, those thingsthat, that you have to expose to the outside, what happens if they're abusedand then, basically what you imagine there is, is every business's, risk today.So this is really the key to understanding, why AI security is important and,and I know what type of.

There is in exposing these services, therisk is really the very business itself. I mean, that's the really the core of,of what you do as a company. And therefore every company should think, aboutwhat would happen if these interfaces are used incorrectly, if there's somekind of vulnerability.

Yeah. If somebody steals your partnerscredentials to, to these services, what happens to you and, and your clients atthe end of the day. And, and you know, the, that, the answer to that is farmore than just, deleting your. Or something, like an infrastructure thing.Like, it's typically something much more significant.

I mean, it will be a lot of lost piimoney movement. Maybe, maybe somebody can actually steal money from you thatway. It can be a compliance issue, it can be a regulatory issue and so on. So,so I think, I think that's the, that's the big difference between applicationsecurity and, a lot of like older infrastructure security that, again, is stillrelevant today.

But you know, the, the big change, thebig, the big growth in, from a threat perspective is really on the applicationside. Yeah,  

Julian: yeah. Yeah. How didyou get started in cybersecurity?  

Giora: Yeah, so I actuallystarted in the army. I was kind of, kind of more on the, the other side of thegame.

Yeah. And back then I didn't even thinkthat, cyber attacks are going to be. Something that is discussed or, orrelevant for the industry, I think, used to be more of a, nation state type ofthing for securing your infrastructure and and, and so on.

Then in 2011, I, I started my firstcybersecurity company which was called Light Cyber. Light. Cyber was the firstxdr. It combined NDR with ADR together. Yeah, and, and created basically thefirst the first XD. , the concept there. was very similar, but, at, at thetime, attacks were really more, more like infrastructure attacks.

Attackers were aiming to compromiseemployee devices like your laptop and through there, get into the data center,getting to the, the internal corporate network and so on. And and we, we wouldwe would find the attackers as they operate inside the. By observing thebehavior today, I mean that kind of led me to what I'm doing today.

So after my previous company gotacquired and I was at Palo Alto Networks for for three years. I, I sawcompletely new problem that was not addressed by any of the, the big securitycompanies. And that was in application security. Cause I noticed that all of asudden more and more attacks are actually on the application environmentsrather than the infrastructure data.

and and interestingly, most of thesecurity companies are actually not dealing with, with application security atall. It's more of an infrastructure play for most of the security companies.And and I think today the shift, the, the focus has shifted to the applicationenvironments for sure.

So cloud security, application securityis is really the where things happen.  

Julian: Yeah, it's, it's wildto see the shift in the environment and it's even that much more, I think, atleast for a company standpoint, frightening that, there's not a lot of playersin the space helping with the protection of those.

But the fact that there is, is, is alittle bit more exciting in, in kind of the advancement of the technology. Andit seems like there's always this push and pull with, people who are, areattacking and I. Nowadays, they're set up as almost companies themselves interms of the, the type of information that they extract.

How coordinated these efforts are to getinto whether it's, one, one shape, one shape or form of, of cybersecurityattacks. And but back, kind of thinking about back to, I, I know at Light Cyberyou were acquired by Palo Alto Networks, and I'm always curious about, the, theacquisition process, not going through one myself, but talking to a bunch offounders.

Gone through a bunch of acquihires and,and going through this transition what ultimately made you decide to go with anacquirer like Palo Alto Networks, and what did you kind of learn from thetransition in working with them that you've taken and, and, and maybe it's astructural thing, maybe it's a strategy who knows, but what have you taken,extracted and, and used at Neosec from that experience?

Giora: Oh, a lot of things.So, so first, . Selling your company is not it is not what we intended to dotypically, but, sometimes there is a, sometimes there's, there's a good match.And I think when, at the time for light cyber we, we found that we have kind ofa glass ceiling at some point.

We, we were actually growing prettynicely. We just, we, we were, we raised just an like another round of fundingat, at the. and we, we were not like in in a stressed position or, or anythinglike that. And we noticed that over time it becomes, harder and harder to, togrow.

And part of the reason is that we, wewere mm-hmm. . Cause we started as an ndr. We started as network monitoringtechnology. We always had to. To deploy or install within the data center, kindof close to the switch, close to the packets and deploying devices became lessand less popular in these years.

I mean, it was super popular as, as thecompany grew and, and then over time companies like FireEye and others were notsucceeding to grow anymore. So that was kind of an inflection point and, thatwas kind of inherent in our technology. There was no other way to do it. Imean, you have to, to see the.

in the network. And and I think the, thecombination with Palo Alto Networks, had the promise of using their existingdevices that, that were the firewalls and getting the telemetry from, fromthere. So we, by that, to avoid that big obstacle for, for the growth of thetechnology.

Yeah. So that made a ton of sense. And,because of because of that, I think, it, it, know, it made sense to. To to gothere and, and and basically build a, a much bigger product line based on thetechnology and based on, on or the know-how, but implemented in a differentway.

So we, we transition. Yeah. So, so that,that's the kind of the second part of your question. What what did you learn?So, so many different things. I mean, Palo Alto Networks is an amazing company.Yeah. . But one thing that is kind of related to the product and may maybeinteresting for the audience. , we, we, we, we were trying to basicallytransition our, our technology from a, from a software technology mm-hmm.

that can be deployed, deployed on-premor in a virtual machine, whatever form into a SaaS technology that can work asa service from cloud. And, based on devices that are already deployed in thefield and, and can send the telemetry and yeah. Was, was actually much harderthan we thought.

We, we thought that building the SaaSservice is just, we, we, we could just, lift and shift the, the software andmake it into SaaS. Of course. I mean, there's some complications and so and soon. But we thought that would be the, the fastest path. Then we, we realizedthat it's actually not the fastest.

In order to really deliver a service atscale today the, the product line in parallel metrics is, has a huge scale and,and huge customer base. And in order to do that, you need to really build itdifferently. The architecture needs to be, needs to be different. And there arereally no shortcuts.

You can't just take software and, andmake it sa in a scalable way. So, so that, that actually, that learning weimplemented in Nsec, in Nsec, we realized that protecting APIs is definitely somethingthat needs to be provided as a service. Practically all the APIs that peopleexposed to the outside are, are, based in public cloud.

I mean, it's, it's all new modernarchitecture for the most. . And we decided in a very early stage to. A hundredpercent SaaS. There is a component of kind of collect data on the customerside, but then all the analytics happens in, in, in SaaS. And that, that is,one of the most important decisions that we make because, it, it enables us to,to do things differently and, and and build things in a much more scalable way.

Julian: Yeah, it's incredibleto to hear. The, the learning of not only launching different product lines,but how to scale them and what do you think is the most important piece or oneof the, the two most important pieces when you're thinking about launching a, akind of more distributed product line and also turning a service into assessedservice.

That, wasn't inherently So is theresomething that you had to consider that you didn't consider until you got intoit that, you could get or, or advise other founders on what to kind of focus onas, as they look to transition their, their products and from one form toanother, what in particular kind of catches, kind of brings to mind?

Yeah, if, if you have any advice,  

Giora: I would say, maybemaster is, is kind of unexpected because I don't think you can retransition. Imean, we, we could only make, make that transition from light cyber to PaloAlto Networks because we were acquired and we could take the product off themarket for a while.

Yeah, I, I think in practice, companiescannot create transition, unfortunately, by the way, even big companies like,know, let's say you, you built a great. Product. And you have a public companyeven, and now the time you change and you need to, to change into SaaS, it'sreally, really hard.

You're never gonna do, you're nevergonna make that transition completely. You You're gonna have a, maybe a halfservice and it's gonna have some, some SaaS qualities, but it's never going tobe like a native sales offering. And the reason is actually more than thetechnology.

In order to be a sales company, youneed, like every process in the company need to be. It starts from thelicensing and in order fulfillment and support. Instead of supporting sales, wetypically have customer like customer success. And, and of course thedevelopment lifecycle.

I mean the, the, when we developsoftware, we typically have a more of a waterfall process. Mm-hmm. , and itcan, it can be more more agile or less agile. But, at the end of the day, it's.I mean there is there's the development lifecycle. There are some there's someqa you bring it to to production and so on.

And, and kind of iterate on, on newversions. And then of course you need to to maintain all the versions and soon. When you build SaaS, you can actually build a completely, continuousprocess like a C I C D that is much more. . But that requires the whole processto be different. QA is different.

DevOps is different. And it's reallyhard. I mean, once you have that like a certain DNA to your company and peoplethat you hired and and so on but not only the people, even like the culture andthe DNA of, of, how, how you do things, it's just important. It's impossible tochange it over time, even if the original people are no longer there.

And, some people, come and go. , thecore of it is still the same. So this is why, I think it's really impossible tochange the transition like that. So, so my lesson is, you have to start in theright way. You can't, you can't assume that you're gonna have two differenttypes of product that are different in the architecture or maybe two flavors ofthat.

It doesn't really work. Either yoursoftware or your SaaS. You that, that type of, of, of customer success processor you have another. It's very, very different.

Julian: that's, I mean, that'ssuch a great piece of advice, and, and I can, I can see the different. ,environments and, and how the development process is so different and it, likeyou said, you have to build it from the ground up.

That's the only way it's, it's gonna runat an efficient speed or else. Sounds like the transition is, is fairlydifficult in terms of, reinventing the team and, and kind of reestablishing thefocus and the development process overall. Tell us a little bit about Nsec.Tell us a little bit about know, the current traction.

What was exciting about last year'sgrowth? What are you excited about this year's? What are some of the cool newthings that you're rolling out? If you have any numbers, we'd love to hear. Asas founders ourselves, we, we always get excited with numbers.  

Giora: Yeah. So no music. We,we, we launched the product in late 2021.

And know, I, I, I think API security isone of the hardest topics in, in security. So even though 2022 was generallytough here for the market know, this is one of the topics that is growing very,very fast. I think probably faster than any. Other security topic in the past.

But I, it feels like every year thingskind of, move faster than the previous year in general. Not, not just not justin our topic. It's just like, the, the more transformation, the more digitaltransformation people are, are doing, the more the faster, things move.

Yeah. So, so yeah. So that wasdefinitely a, a, a very exciting year for us. We, we got a lot of greatrecognition. We were presenting on, the RSA innovation sand. We, we wereselected by Gartner as a cool vendor. We, we had a lot of different types of coverageand, and so on.

We built amazing relationships withpartners. , both tech alliances as well as as channel partners. Mm-hmm. , we,we know we have, we have some of them that, that do a lot of work for us. And,this is really the, the key to, to grow in the end of the day. So, yeah.

So yeah, I mean that a lot of differentfronts and and, and I think, it's exciting for us to, to, to be in a, in aplace where what we do is, is becoming a. We're not the only ones there. Imean, we have competition and that's actually good. Because it means thatpeople have the need.

People need to to create that budget. Tospend that budget. So this is really what, what gets us excited and and, and ofcourse we have our own differentiation and, the, our approach that is differentthan the others.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And whatare some of the biggest challenges that Neosec faces?

Giora: Well, I mean, chthere, there, like, for a start, there are always a lot of challenges.Everything that you do is is not straightforward. Otherwise, it, it would beobvious. So, an athlete, a lot of different things. I mean, it starts from theway that you that you expand your business to new territories.

And the, some, some similarities, somethings are d. Naturally growing the team making the process more scalabledelivering the knowledge. I mean, know, kind of expanding your knowledge toyour partners and, and so on. So, every process like that is something that,that is not trivial.

It doesn't happen by itself. Sometimesyou, you hope that something would work in a certain way, and it doesn't mean,maybe it doesn't progress you know well enough. So you need to find anotherway. And I think in a startup, it's always about, focusing on what matters andmaking sure that it happens in there.

And, if you focus on too many things, I,I think it's it's not good. I think with all the challenges of, of last yearthat I think every company felt, I mean, we, we see. Even large companies. Imean, they need to, to let a lot, a lot of people go and and so on. Yeah. I, Ifeel that, that, that for us, it was a really focusing moment.

We we, we saw what's going on in themarket and for us, focus was really the answer. Focus on what matters. Focusedon, these objectives that we have to we have to get. And if you focus on, on afinite number of things, we can actually. You get these things done.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. Ifeverything goes though, what's the long-term vision for Neosec?  

Giora: The, API security isthe, the new security. I mean, this is also why we called our company Neosec.It's, neo security, right? So, so thinking like in the next years the biggrowth in security is going to be both in cloud.

As it's a, super important field thatwe, we see, a lot of future growth for and also application security. They'reboth related to each other because the, cloud security is really theinfrastructure of the application. You can think about cloud security is, orcloud in general.

Yeah. As the infrastructure where youbuild applications. So cloud security is naturally something that is growing. ,with, with the use of the cloud and, and building of applications andapplications, building these applications and, and digital transformation isreally the reason for all of that.

And and, and this is really what, whatdrives, all that it transformation and and growth in, in every, every digitalbusiness. So, for us, we're gonna continue to grow. We're gonna become a,larger and larger. . And, eventually we're gonna ipo.

I think, this is, this is definitelywhere where it's going naturally. It's a long journey. It's not something thathappens in one or two years, but but this is what we're building.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I have afew rapid fire questions for you that I'd love to an, I'd love to hear youranswers for.

So just to break into it. What'sparticularly hard about your job?  

Giora: Well, I guess the factthat it's every day it's something else that, that you need to do. Yeah. , Ihave a lot of great people on my team and, and of course in the company eachperson has some kind of ownership. I think that's, that's super important.

It's instilling that ownership. But forme, like every day there is something else, like something else that you needto, to focus on and get done, and that, that context switch is not easy. andthere's also nobody to tell me what to do. You know what I mean? I mean, soit's like I need to figure out what, what is really the thing that I, thatneeds to get done.

Julian: Yeah. What are yourmaybe tricks or something that you do as, as consistently as a company tocontinue to establish and continue to align the company around culture? How doyou kind of maintain culture in a remote?

Giora: I think it's superimportant to choose the right people. If, if you even have one person that isnot the right person from a culture perspective, it, it doesn't have to be likea, like a bad person that, that causes damages or anything like that,

But if, if it doesn't align with theculture, it really creates some ripple effects and, and it's it's hard. Sochoosing the people and making sure. That we give people the right ownership.Everybody got, has to, to have the, the, the right ownership and has to, toexecute because, this is like, we, we can't do it all by ourselves or we can'ttake all the other responsibility, let's say on the founders or the managementteam, that that doesn't scale.

So if, if people have their ownership,then yeah. They think out of the box. They, they can really kind of expand.What we, what we don't see. .  

Julian: Yeah. What is, what,what's one or maybe a couple piece of advice that you would give a founderearlier on in, in their career, say if they were, if, if you were you back whenyou were starting light cyber, what are, what is one piece of advice?

What's something that you know now thatyou wish you knew back then?  

Giora: Maybe one piece ofadvice that luckily, I, I you know, I, I didn't miss, back then also now is,don't do it alone. I mean, get a, a good co-founder and do it together because,doing it alone is hard.

I think it's much more fun and I think,not only fun, I think it's really like, You get to, to do much more when youcan do it, with another co-founder. So, I'm super lucky to have my co-founder .And previously my yeah, my co-founder in the previous company, Michael, thatthat, that is one of my best friends.

And and, I think this is probably one ofthe most important things and, only, only work with people that, that, that youthink you're, you're gonna like to work with, over time, not just founders, Imean, don't get investors that that that you don't think are, are gonna be goodfor you over time.

it's better to, to to decline, some kindof even something that looks like a good offer from an investor that Yeah. Youknow, That you don't want to work with. Cause you, you'll find another you'llfind another investor. But if you, once you, once you bring somebody into, intothe company, it's like, it's like getting married to somebody that you don'tlike.

It's really hard to break it. I thinkit's actually a marriage, with the company.

Julian: If you weren't workingon Neosec. If you, if you're working on something else, what would you beworking.

Giora: maybe another startup,another cyber security startup. . Yeah, . I, I think that's me. I mean, this iswhat I know how to do. You know what I mean? .

Julian: yeah. Last questionbefore we obviously, we at the end of the episode, I always like to collectwebsites and LinkedIns about Neosec. But before we get into that what, whetherit's early in your career or now, what books or people have influenced you?

Giora: Wow. Great question.I, I think people, I think, really with people, what always surprises you is,these people that you didn't necessarily think are, are going to influence,what you think. These people are kind of, yeah. Either ones that grow in yourcompany that, that started from something and, became, something else orsomething, super meaningful.

So, so I think, sometimes there'sactually a lot to learn from, from things that, that look simple. And, maybe,don't, it doesn't look like I mean, you typically don't, don't really learnfrom like the most experienced people only, right? Of course, you, you have alot to learn from experienced people, but.

Sometimes you you also learn from, frompeople that don't necessarily have all the experience. And I think this is thisis, you know what, what's exciting.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I lovethat. I love that. And I know we're at the end of the episode here and Kiro, itwas such a pleasure chatting with you and learning not only about your spaceand your journey, but also about kind of the future and, and where technologyis going and, and how things are shifting in the focus.

I think it's illuminating to, to thecurrent state of, of technology today. But last little bit is let us know wherewe can be a supporter of Neosec, where it can be a supporter of you. Give usyour LinkedIns, your websites, your Twitters, your Discord channels, whereverwe can find and be a fan of the product and and even start to use it if we're acompany that's interested.

Giora: Yeah, so of course,our website is neosec.com. And I, I think everybody that develops softwaretoday and, and APIs, especially in the case where you develop SaaS and, andexpose your APIs and so on, I think that's something that everybody needs.Typically. I, I would say companies that have, hundreds of employees and up,but practically everybody needs that type of disability cause that's your coreservice.

So yeah, we would love to, to get intouch. You can of course connect me on LinkedIn. I by the way, I always, happy,I'm happy to help other founders. As much as I I have time, I, I'd love to dothat. And but, but yeah, I mean, definitely if you're, if you're developingsoftware and APIs, we would love to work together.

Julian: Amazing. Giora, thankyou so much for taking the time. I hope you enjoyed yourself and again, thankyou for being on the podcast today.  

Giora: Thank you.  

Julian: Of course.

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