Julian: Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have Jonathan Fishbeck, founder and CEO of EstateSpace, the number one cloud, E R P for the ultra high net worth market to manage non-financial assets. Jonathan, I'm so excited to chat with you and, and get to know you a little bit better.

I know you have some cool, not only progress that you've made, but also some. Some really exciting plans for this year and really just excited to hear from founders how the whole process has been from the building of the product to the conception of the idea to where you are currently and the traction that you're facing.

But before we get into all that, with the stay space, what were you doing before you started the company?  

Jonathan: Yeah, Julian, thank you for having me here today. And definitely that's a great, great lead in question. So, , prior to, prior to this company, I'm, so, I'm a three time founder, so this is my third venture with EstateSpace.

Prior to this I was a general contractor. We're a construction management firm, and we served the ultra high net worth marketplace. So I was a services driven business. We were doing anywhere from like, Five to 15 million a year in recurring. very successful in our space. Yeah. And and, and it was kind of the, through, tho through those experiences that led to the genesis of this, this latest venture.

And for me that was most exciting because I come from a technology background, a technology family. So to be able to to solve a, a problem as big as what EstateSpace is solving through technology to help as many people as possible that that was. , that was a very exciting kind of pivot point in my life.

Julian: Yeah, yeah. And I'm always excited, interested to hear about the founders journey from going, through multiple, companies that they've built. What was the transition like from the last company being more service heavy into more of a technology kind of, using, using, software as a service essentially?

Jonathan: Yeah. So I'll start with the best part about it, right? The best part was that we had a services mindset, so that was our biggest strength and our greatest weakness. So, it was super hard to transition my experience as probably similar to a lot of other SaaS founders that I, that I've met with, that that left service where, I'm doing really well in this space, it's gonna translate to this other space and, it's gonna, it's gonna be great.

It, it was pretty difficult. It took me about probably, Two to three years to really like shift my mindset away from service and then really start to say, okay, great, we're gonna take this business, we're going to, we're gonna make it sas and we're gonna scale it. So, I think from a, an overall, timeframe, and talking with other founders such as yourself, it's better, better to kind of slow down to speed up in the beginning of, of starting something and knowing that yeah, you're, you I want to reinvent myself.

I want to do this new thing. I want to get into technology. But yeah, it was definitely there was a lot of different challenges that, that I faced along that journey.

Julian: Yeah. And, and what were some of the challenges and, and specifically, you said transition from services to platform, you had to change the mindset.

And I'm assuming some of the, the the offerings might have changed as well. What did you essentially have to eliminate from the service point of view for whether it's time or resources or investment? And what did you gain, in the addition of building a software focused company?

Jonathan: Yeah, so I think the, the thing that I had to let go of was that I had scaled a business and revenue with people.

And so that doesn't work for technology. So that was my, probably my biggest mistake and my greatest realization from a. My biggest take away was that when it came to how to, to, really learn through that process, kind of learning and maturing and understanding how to scale a, a SaaS platform with a marketplace.

And so I think that the coolest part about that, and again, why it was our greatest strength and greatest weakness was, and why it's our best strength now, is that we actually are winning in our space because of a services mindset. Because we have a marketplace with providers that that serve our client well, and that we understand that, with what we're doing from a tech perspective, it's fantastic.

Right. It makes a ton of sense, but it's to a large degree useless for a lot of our families and a lot of our clients that don't. If there's no people part of it. Having kind of made sure that. Kind of shepherded and, and, and took with us the best pieces of service.

It was kind of like letting go and then kind of restructuring and kind of re redeploying that, those services in a way in which others did it. While the tech company kind of, scales one way, or service providers scale another way and. What what we've learned is that no matter what service you're in, it's just a different kind of SaaS.

It's service as a service. So we work with our partners to find a simple way in which people can, can buy them. So if that means they sell by the square foot, or they sell by, blocks of time, like what, whatever that unit of measure is that. The client can ultimately, easily understand, know what they're getting and buy quickly.

And I think you see that, some people might call it managed services, but I, I like to, I like to, to have our partners do sash. Just a different kind.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I like the service as a service model that, that sounds like it, it's in the right direction, especially for your audience and how to cater to them and describe your audience a little bit more and, and your customer, I guess, who are.

What is an ultra net worth asset or property or individual? And then also, how do you, what is different about servicing them than, say the average the average individual?

Jonathan: Yeah. So our, our marketplace we came from service and we knew that our, our clients in that business would translate to this business.

So, we, and we served ultra high net worth families. So typically they're gonna have a certain amount of liquid assets. It's how they're, it's how you might me define that. But these are people that are just people. They have a lot of complex assets. They have a lot of holdings, both financially and non-financially.

And our, our opportunity was not just serving them but also serving their family office. Because we did private service and we, we worked with both sides of, of, of our client's world. We really understood the, the, the problem, right? It's an interconnected problem across their ecosystem. Yeah.

And so we knew that EstateSpace would need to be an interconnected solution. And so that's something that we were able, we've been able to achieve and do really. The people that we serve are gonna be within that space, right? So we're, we're, we're, we're a b2c but we're also a b2b. So we're able to work with direct to client direct to a fam single family office.

We can work with multi-family offices. We work with, luxury providers. So we're dealing with, top construction management firms, property management, estate management. So if you think about all the people that directly support that individual, those are also our clients. And we wanted to build a platform that just worked in all directions for all people.

Because what we ended up finding was when you start to look at kind of the six main p personas that we, in our audience that we are targeting they all have common threads of need. And so it's like, great, let's build out those common threads and then we can start to, to, to build down and, and really build out additional things for each one of them.

Yeah. More specifically. And so that's, that, that's kind of been our approach.  

Julian: Yeah. What's that common thread that all the six personas have?  

Jonathan: Yeah, so it's gonna be the three main problems, right? There's a, there's a problem with communication, there's a problem with with transparency and data privacy.

And then there's a problem with expectation management. In order to solve those things we really focused on building out the, the platform to, to not only handle direct communication, so messaging, channels, et cetera. But also to be able to have a, an basically the system do the administrative work of reminding or, somebody said this and somebody did it, and then making sure that they're notified.

So kind of filling in for that, automating the system admin if you that was, that was a big thing that we did. And then everybody owns properties. Everybody has non-financial assets, so you can think cars, arts jets, et cetera. Yeah. So we're able to manage all of those things for those people for, for all of the people within, in, in that audience.

And then , where are we now? So now we're working on building out a project management suite where four of the six personas need that thing. Yeah. So it's like let's get that common platform and understanding where it's of value and there's an ROI for all of our clients. And then let's start to, to dig deeper and start to solve some of the next hardest problems.

Cuz as you can imagine our clients have the financial capacity to continue to grow. So, no matter what the macroeconomics are in the world, they're still buying properties. They're still remodeling. Mm-hmm. , they're doing construction. So, it's making sure that. When, when, when you ask to kind of round this answer out for, for the question is, we, we have to make sure that we do a really good job of asking the right question.

Yeah. Listening to the answer and then saying it back to make sure that we really understand what it is that we were told. That's, that's something that we excel at. Cause we've been doing that for about 15 years now. And so, we, we took some of those really great attributes that we had built in our services business and we, we brought that to EstateSpace.

And what's been great is that, what that ends up leading to is a ton of relationship capital, right? Yeah. The thing that's most important to us, so we still know everybody. We're open to conversations even though we're tech, we don't hide behind a tech, a tech veil or anything like that. Yeah. Like we are chat bot always available and, and we can't wait to to, to meet you.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And in regards to, just thinking about the different assets and the, the management process, whether it's, physical assets or or, or excuse me like assets in terms of the states or, or art or all these other different things that someone could have. What was the incumbent before you?

What were people doing? I can, I can only see in my mind like a spreadsheet or was there another tool that, that was as helpful? What was been, how were they managing their assets before before EstateSpace .  

Jonathan: So, in, in large part they weren't yeah, , their, their holdings are so complex that, as we were managing this for clients, there was no way that we could even trans begin to transition, right.

All the, the tribal knowledge that we had as a, as a company, we could never teach somebody else. So yeah, I mean, you were, you're dealing. 20 different technologies, five different communication mediums. Like, you're using Excel, you're using Google Docs, you're trying to use all these disparate technologies and yeah, what that ends up leading to is a very broken , deliverable, right?

Mm-hmm. . So I'm trying to do the things across these 20 things and it becomes extremely people intense. And so that was part of the opportunity and the realization that we had as to knowing that we could really solve a lot of these problems with a platform that would interconnect a lot of the things in which were disconnected at that.

Yeah.  

Julian: And tell us a little bit about the traction. How many how, how many individuals are you servicing right now? How many providers do you have on your network? What's exciting? Not only about last year's growth, but you know, moving into this year, what are you particularly focused on? And excited about  

Jonathan: the.

Yeah. So last year was kind of our our, our, our coming out party, if you will. So, yeah. We, we, we launched our commercial product in April 30th of last year. And so at that point, you can kind of say that we were, at or close to zero when we start to talk about numbers.

Yeah. Right now we just crossed 300,000 in recurring revenue. We've got just, just about to hit a hundred clients and a thousand members on the. . And so that's exciting for us because, at the end of the day, what we found was. Getting clients on a pla on the platform and giving us feedback is what really made us like that, that that's accelerated our growth because they're telling us what they need and then we're, we're delivering that this year, super excited to, to five x those things.

So I'd love to hit, one and a half. I'd love to hit, 5,000 members and I'd love to have between, three to 500 clients on the. So that's, and, and, and, and what, what I, what I'm excited most about is the thing that I don't know, right? Which is like, we're gonna have like this organ organic growth that I'm, I'm not even sure what that's gonna look like, but I'm, I'm excited for kind of that, that part of the company in 2023.

Yeah.  

Julian: Yeah. When you think about the different ways to, to expand the business, you think about client acquisition, you think about, whether it's hiring individuals to build out more of the platform and services or expand your services and features. How do you balance all that out? Are you having conversations with your team as founders?

It is, it's a dynamic process and I think we can all get pointed in many different directions and get excited about the next new thing we can start building on or, or working. But how do you prioritize it? Do you lift it out? Do you go with your team? Do you kind of have a focus and then an execution strategy?

What's your process for figuring out, okay, this is what we're prioritizing and once we hit this milestone, we're gonna move on to the  

Jonathan: next thing? Yeah. So I'm from a corporate perspective, I believe in horizons of growth, and I believe that each horizon has its own challenges on scale and people and process.

From a overall day-to-day my focus is always to have a great day today and make that great, make great days into great weeks. Yeah. As far as my time, I time block, so I spend 80% of my time as our ceo. And I'm focusing on on capital corporate and governance. Right. From, and then 20% of the time I spend on product ownership.

And so I spend almost, I spend less than 1% of my time on the sales and marketing piece. My. Greatest successes are coming through my, my other executives in the company and, and, and their success. So, prior to this, prior to this year just as soon as like December of last year, I was probably spending about 95% of my time in product development.

I had to make sure that we really nailed what it is that we were doing and what we were gonna deliver to a point where I had the confidence to step back. Yeah. A lot of other founders may find that same thing you, you might be engrossed in getting the product developed and the platform out, but at some point the company needs a ceo, right?

Yeah. You need to make sure that you have runway, you need to make sure you have good corporate hygiene and governance in place, right? You owe that to your shareholders and to your employees and your teams, so, for me, that transition again, it was just kind of a shift of time blocking. I've always been a huge fan of doing that.

Yeah. And I, I rarely have meetings over 45 minutes. I, I don't, I safeguard and bookend my weekends, like, I'm very much focused when it comes to, making sure that if I allocate my time right, that most of the. Things are gonna just happen. But I'm gonna at least give myself the time to get my work done.

Yeah. And really focus on my, my 80% more than anything else.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. As a founder, what what do you know now that you wish you learned or, or started learning earlier in your, your career as an entrepreneur? .  

Jonathan: Yeah. So, great, great question. And but I, I, one, one thing I would say is that and when it comes to time management, it's super hard, right?

Like, yeah, I get a call right before this and I'm talking to an investor who wants to be a partner who, we're, it's all exciting and I think it's just being able to take a breath and like, just stay methodical and stay focused. Yeah, it's, it's a lot easier said than done.

But but yeah, no, I mean as far as the, the number one thing that I'd really wished I'd learned, maybe in previous ventures was to get a great advisor. Yeah. But in the space that I'm gonna be in, pay for that advice, cuz I get you get way better advice for paid services. Yeah. And, and be able to to have done that and spend, I'm a huge fan of planning.

I believe everything's 70% planning, 30% execut. But getting advice, if I would've done that upfront, I'd probably saved myself about 18 to 24 months of churn. Yeah. Just personally in this tech company. And my transition had, I had done that on day one. Yeah. So, that's, that's kind of the, my, the number one thing that I'd wish I could have told myself.

But at the end of the day, it's my journey. It's a cool story and I'm just glad that I can now say that I know what that one thing is with confidence and it serves me well.  

Julian: You talk about this conversation with investors and one, if. Being, a, a, a multi founder, how do you seek out the right investors and the right partners? What is, what is your kind of decision making process?

And then secondly, when you do find that partner, , how do you manage expectations in that relationship? Because ultimately you're the decision maker. You're focused on the company, they're focused on the company as well, but in, in a different way that is is different incentives for them than for you. So how do you manage those expectations once you do select that partner?

Jonathan: Yeah, so, we were bootstrapped we've pretty much primarily been bootstrapped, so we've been kind of family founded and. Now that we're starting to grow our cap table, now that we're starting to find new investors I've always found, I keep it simple. Julian, so basically I'm looking for somebody that's a good person, right?

They're just a cool person that you would want to talk to and be around it. It's, it's natural, it's easy. I want to surround myself that with people that have integrity. . And so those things might be easy to, easier to find. I think the hardest thing, and kind of my, my, my most important point is making sure that they care about what it is that we're actually doing as a company.

Like, I want them to have a vested interest on multiple dimensions. And so, I've found that those investors. Are much better fit for me because then that leads into how do I manage the expectation? Well, I do what I said I was gonna do, right? This is the company, this is our board, this is what we do as a business.

I can support them in many ways. They could be and they could be an advisor to, to, to the board. They could be an, they could just observe. But, in order for us to stay special, we have a very simple board. It's myself and it's my chairman. And, we are able to maintain agility.

We make great decisions. He's that advisor I wish I had had, six years ago instead of three and a half. And and, and it's, it's just honesty and transparency, right? Yeah. That's how I manage all of our, our shareholders. That's, That's how I kind of manage everybody in my life. At the end of the day, my why every day is personally and professionally the same.

It's to, get up and help people. Right. And so, yeah, I'm doing that by, following through on those things in which I said I was gonna do.  

Julian: Yeah. I'm always curious because you have a very specific or a very interesting insight into markets. You said, a lot of your clients, even in a bear market are still they're still having transactions done, they're still having projects completed.

Within their insights, what have you learned or, or what, what are, is there perspective when you're at that level in terms of how you take on a bear market? What are some strategies that you think about maybe as, as, as an average individual that you're not aware of until you say, reach that level?

What kind of advice or how do they view markets and bear markets and, and how do they strategize to be, come out on top in a way?  

Jonathan: I would say that, I'm, I'm not a financial advisor, so I'll lead with that. But when it comes to kind of the non-financial assets and the space that I am, and, as an owner, representative I have worked with clients.

I've been a fiduciary for them to help them deploy capital and to real property assets and the things that I know. So from a. From a bear market perspective, I kind of start to see some of the similarities from previous times in which this has occurred in the market where I see a lot of our clients investing in real property assets, right?

So, buying real estate doing improvement projects, kind of shifting possibly, changing the way in which they might ensure those things, right. I see a lot of different strategies across their portfolios on our, on our side and through covid. That's actually while it was a pandemic and it's, it's been a, it's been a difficult time for the whole world.

It's really boosted our space. It's really made people think, okay, well I have all this stuff, but you know, I'm not managing any of it. Like mm-hmm. , what, what happens if something happens? So it really was a maybe a great point of realization and history for us and. I think we were just kind of maybe more lucky than good there, but it's, it's, it's really brought attention to the fact that, we have a lot of things, they have a lot of complex holdings, but they're not being properly managed with technology.

Their advisors don't know what's going on with it. And so, EstateSpace is focus and aim is to help our families realize, better economic outcomes using technology when it comes to non-financial. .  

Julian: Yeah. Something that the audience won't see because what we've clipped it out is, is you know, the interruptions of family.

And, and on a personal note, how does you know as a founder yourself? I think one thing that's not discussed is setting the expectations with family. And, you're on this journey. It's a high, high velocity. It's a lot of, a lot of focus. I know you do your best at time block and separate time, so it's very consistent.

But how is that conversation with, with family? What, what advice would you give another founder who's jumping into starting their own their own company, but obviously has other commitments as well?  

Jonathan: First, you have to take care of yourself and you take care of your family, and then you go to work, and then you do a good job.

That's, that's what I do. That's what I advise. It's the number one thing. You can't take care of someone else if you can't take care of yourself. If I have an interruption right now and my child needs me, I'm gonna go take care of my child because if anything, it's just made this this podcast and this interview with you better and more personal.

Right? Yeah. And so everybody accepts that now, which is great. and my conversation is that, I'm, I'm partnered number one with my wife, right? And so, yeah. She understands that if I'm, if I'm, if I need time that she'll support me in that and, and vice versa. So it's, that that's, that's, that's always my 1, 2, 3 when it comes to any day,  

Julian: any time.

Yeah. That, I love that. It's very simple, but I'm sure it's difficult to, to maintain. But it's effective as well. From going back to EstateSpace, what are the biggest challenges data faces today?  

Jonathan: So I think, right, so right now we're scaling and our number one challenge right now is is adoption.

It's not needing it, right? The need is there. They, they, they want it and it's it's really helping them get onboarded technically. Yeah. And so that's with any problem, we see innovation, right? We see an opportunity and. The company right now is gonna, shift our focus as we close out our capital raise for, for, for right now.

And we're gonna start to look and model EstateSpace services arm and look to staff that so that we can really provide that service and, and that, that, yeah, that onboarding is kind of like once they get through that we have a very, very high retention rate, so we wanna make sure that we can.

Support that onboarding piece and then, and then let them get to other services. Cuz you can kind of think of EstateSpace like it's, it's, it's something that all of our clients have needed, but it's like we've built an e r P platform, so it's like this huge glass of water and it's SaaS, so it's not like they can just get one piece or a little part of it.

They get all of it. And so all of it is a lot. So we try to help make sure that like we are their liaison and we hold their hand through. Drinking that glass of water versus, drowning in it. Right? Yeah. And so that, that would be our, probably our biggest right now challenge that we're working to solve for with our, between our company and our partners.

Julian: Yeah. If everything goes well, what's the long term vision for EstateSpace?  

Jonathan: Well, so, everything will go well. It's only a matter of time. But I think our, our long term vision is to make sure that we maintain why the company is in existence, right? And that's to help the families and the people that we serve.

So, long term, while we're privately held, now, we operate institutionally kind of behind the scenes. And so, I don't know what that will lead to. I know that we know we're, we're, we are built to go a couple of different directions. Whether we do three more series and IPO it or we, we sell it right.

Whatever it is that we do I won't do anything that would hurt the integrity of the brand that we've built and the product. Yeah. That's serving our clients and the services behind it because I built, we built this company on relationship capital, right. We, like I said, we started it from another services business and you.

You talk about legacy software, right? Mm-hmm. , that's like people aspire to do that. Yeah. But we actually have technology that serves a family's legacy. Like today we're, we're financial asset performance, physically and financially we're operational efficiencies. But we're going to the first, the world's first dynamic estate plan, right?

Asset succession end to. Financial transactions, right? Like that's, that's where we're ultimately heading with the EstateSpace. And so, we'll, whatever, whatever, wherever we go in the future, we have to just make sure, and I will always safeguard, the legacy platform that we've built to support the legacies of all the families and, and businesses that we serve.

Julian: Yeah. I'm gonna hit you with a couple or a few lightning round questions here. First question is what's the hardest part of your job?  

Jonathan: The hardest part of my job is going to be staying, staying focused. Right. I think that's probably the hardest part of my job.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And if if you were to have more time spent in one particular area what would you wanna spend more time on in your day to day.  

Jonathan: Non-business stuff? So, I'd love to be able to spend more me time in different parts of the day versus. being glued to my chair or my desk from time to .  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. If you weren't working on the EstateSpace, what would you be working on?  

Jonathan: Something, something , anything . I, I mean I basically I'm, I'm, I'm progress driven.

So yeah. I, I'm always doing something, so if, if I wasn't working on EstateSpace, I'd be doing something that would probably be acquitted to working for my wife.  

Julian: Yeah. . I love that. I love that. Whether it was early in your career or now what books or people have influenced you the most?  

Jonathan: Well, I mean, I started with The E-Myth Revisited.

I started with Traction and those were probably the two books that really helped me see how I wanted to do to be an entrepreneur and, and how to really serve it well. So yeah, I'd say those were kind of the, those were the top two books that I started with.  

Julian: Yeah. And I guess last question for our founders out there, how do you, how do you define your go-to-market strategy?

What do you look at? Are you looking at kind of the user feedback? Are you seeing what's out in the market and how technology is being better adopted? Are you going and talking to a bunch of consultants on the phone? What would you advise other founders to to do in. Figuring out their go-to-market strategy and also, the evolution of it.

Obviously it changes as time goes on, but what would be your advice to founders?  

Jonathan: Yeah. Well, I think when you're first getting started, like, any business I start, I start with a thesis. Like, what, what is that? Right? Why do we exist? What are we gonna do and how are we gonna do it? And and out of that kind of can, can grow your original go-to market strategy.

My, my advice is to kind of. stay on the bleeding edge of it, right? Mm-hmm. . So like I say, I'm the number one cloud e r p in the ultra high net worth market, right? For non-financial aspects. Well, nobody can dispute that, right? But I obviously want to have hundreds of thousands and millions of users and, much be much bigger than where we are today.

So I always like to have our go-to market strategy. Defendable, but also like it should be your aim, right? Like your campaigns can be some of the things and but I, I, I always want your strategy to be the aim of where you want it to be, because it's kind of just like, if you're walking, you look where you're going.

right? And so make your go-to market, be that aim, and then make sure that you're focusing that strategy behind it on outcomes and results, right? That's what people are ultimately buying is the outcome and the result. So, and that's again, easier said than done. It comes with kind of the evolution, but, always start with, making your, your, your main, what are you and why make, make that your, make, make that aim where you want to go as a business.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that I should have or you would have liked to answer?  

Jonathan: I guess, I might have asked myself maybe what, what, how, why, what are the things that you feel like, what are the, maybe the top three things that you would advise to another founder or entre.

Yeah. Yeah. And then what would you do? My answer would've been, part of my answer was, was given, right? So first I need to find a really great advisor. The second thing that I, that I always recommend is finding like people, so don't just have like a peer and a network, but like, I'm a SaaS founder and a ceo, so I surround myself with other SaaS founder and CEOs.

Yes, you can read books, but I learned so much more from conversations with other SaaS founders and CEOs than I could ever read in a book. Yeah, things that I might take away immediately and employ and start to employ in my business like tomorrow, because it's just such a fantastic idea. Yeah.

And then, I think that the third thing is always, slowing down to speed up, right? Really focusing on planning. It's the least expensive thing that you can do when you're looking to actually get started and starting out, or you're going from one horizon of growth to another. Yeah. And, and then, and then using those first two things, getting good advice, asking good questions, the more questions I can ask, the better my better. I, I, I, That's kind of the scale I use to know that I'm doing a really good job as our, as our founder and ceo.  

Julian: Yeah. Jonathan, it's been incredible having you on the show. And I know we're at time here, but I think we could probably, record another episode with, with even more depth knowledge and, and and get updates on, on some really exciting things that you're building.

But where can our audience get involved? Where can we not only see the technology, but if we're a customer, view it, what are your LinkedIns, what's your website? Where can we find you, and where can we be a supporter of the EstateSpace.

Jonathan: Awesome. No, great question and thank you. Great job today. I really appreciate your time here.

We keep it super simple, right? That's kind of been our, our theme here today. So you can go to EstateSpace.com. We're sass, so you can simply go find out self-identify, self-qualify. You can get, you can just get started all by yourself. As soon as you feel that we're right for you, we feel that we're right for.

You can find us on LinkedIn. Please connect with me. I'm always looking to make new connections and have meaningful conversations. And our, our, our support team, if you reach out through our website, we will we'll absolutely be in touch and I look forward to talking to you.

Julian: Amazing. Jonathan, I hope you enjoyed yourself and thank you so much for being on the Behind Company Lines podcast today.  

Jonathan: Great time, great job. Thank you so much.  

Julian: Thanks.