Julian: Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have Denise Thomas, COO of Cisco Meraki creating in intuitive technologies to optimize experiences, secure locations, and seamlessly connect people, places and things. Denise, I'm so excited to chat with you as we were talking before the show about the, the history of Cisco Meraki, the transition and, and acquisition.

Kind of everything that encompasses a lot of, of what people don't know when merging two kind of really exciting technology companies together. And then continuing the culture and organization of it. I know you had a front row seat to it and I'm, and, and, and we're integral in, in the transition.

And I'd love to dive into that, but before we get into all that a question that always pops into my head is, what are larger companies doing better or, or more efficiently or more effectively than smaller companies in your, in your experience and, and in your opinion as well?  

Denise: That's a great question. I, I, I think just by virtue of being larger, you have like an a, you have access to a much larger pool of talent. You have access to a lot of ideas. A lot of large companies tend to be global. Yeah. And, and it's really interesting the problems you are trying to solve on behalf of your customers when that's the reach that your employee base.

Yeah. And, and sometimes I think, like, as I think about our evolution inside of Cisco and even just a little bit prior to Cisco, cause I was a part of Meraki a little bit before that, kind of the problems that we were solving and who we were solving them for was much smaller when we were one smaller.

And I think the problems get exponentially more complicated. Yeah. And, and I, and I, and I think that's some, like some of the benefits of being a larger organization, you're being asked to solve networking challenges for a small organization or a small company at San Francisco, and you're also being asked to solve for networking challenges for a multinational NGO or a multinational company.

And, and it, when you can get good at. Yeah, like that is amazing because the impact that you can have on people and companies is just much greater. And so I think that's what larger companies, when they're doing it right are doing better because they just have a broader set of customers that they need to be supporting and being in partnership.

Julian: Yeah. And what are some of the SI signals to show that a company's doing that well? Is it the, the structure of it? Is it the speed, is it the strategies that you deploy? What in particular leads you to being able to cater to such a, I guess, different, completely different kind of companies and profiles and, and types of organizations?

I'm assuming, within those, there's, there's a lot of intricacies. But how do you, how do you kind of, keep a consistent experience as your company matures?

Denise: Here's a part that I think smaller companies do really well. Mm-hmm. , staying really close to the customer. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And not only understanding the problems that they're trying to solve, but being in partnership with them on those solutions. And, and I think that, that, like, that to me is the canary and the.

In the mind is when you stop listening to your customers, when you stop allowing like the things that they're trying to solve for, to guide what you build and who you invite into your company to build it. Yeah. I, I think that's it. Like you, And, and that becomes really also something that's hard to do when you get bigger is like to make sure that that feedback loop comes back to your business.

We're lucky in the sense of how we operate inside of Cisco. We have almost a, almost a closed loop where. Our support team takes a support call from a customer, and then they have a relationship with our engineering team. And our engineering team then consumes some of the, the feedback that our customers have and the experience that they're having and they're building better product.

And it's almost like a virtuous cycle. We have a sales team that sits really connected to our support team, and they're hearing from our seller. As is our engineering team on like kind of what our customers are asking for and, and what feels important to them. And then we have this thing where it's like, make a wish.

Like our customers can actually literally say, Hey, this is the thing that we really want you to build, and they can submit it. And it doesn't go to like a, it doesn't go to like a whole and that nobody ever looks at. It's a part of our engineering motion to look at those wishes and try to figure out like, which of those will drive the biggest impact for the most customers.

And then we built for that like, Having a loop where you're constantly touching. with the people that you're in business to support and to serve. Yeah. Is, is a fundamental part of that equation. And I think after, sometimes when you get bigger you start going, well, what, what did I say that I was gonna deliver to Wall Street?

Or, what products do I have and how do I, how am I bundling them up in order to drive? Yeah. Sales and revenue in the market. and, and that only goes so far. I think you can kind of look at like history is littered with companies that like fell into that hole, and couldn't get themselves out.

But if you stay really close to the customer and you have real mechanisms for listening and reacting and allowing that feedback from our customers to drive what we build and how we build it. . Mm-hmm. , I think it's easier to become not only a market leader, but to stay a market leader into perpetuity.

As long as those feedback loops are really still happening, and I think what typically happens is that they stop happening. Yeah. Yeah. And then you stop being relevant to the folks that you said you were in the business to, to serve.  

Julian: Yeah. I'm fascinated by that, that transition. And the whole kind of the structure of it.

A lot of companies when they go through acquisitions are like in Aqua Hire, kind of, bringing that team in and, and kind of having that unit. Assembled and already together it does get cut off a lot. And as a company may be going through a similar partnership or acquisition, whatever you, want to call it or however it's defined, how do you advocate to keep that structure and keep that loop and not get too integrated into the larger company?

Is that something that the acquirer sets up expectation wise, something that the founders do? when they're going through these discussions, how do you maintain that? That'll be the environment and, and because it's led to so much success and you wanna repeat that, but with more resources, how do you maintain that? Who's advocating for it?  

Denise: I mean, I think the founders on day one and the conversation that they have with anyone that is acquiring them are the biggest advocates for this. I think when we first joined Cisco and our founders were, were saying, you bought us for a reason. You, you know, you ran some numbers and you assumed that we were gonna be able to deliver, bookings and revenue and growth and innovation.

Yeah. And, we think we can deliver it in a way that is faster and better than even your plan. But here are some key components of what is gonna allow us to be successful and how might we build an acquisition strategy around those key components. It's not everything, but it's the things that matter most.

And for us at Meraki, it was around, keeping this customer centricity as a part of how we work making sure that the pieces that delivered on the customer experience were, continuously connected. And, and it was. building on the culture of like winning an innovation that we had built as an organization.

And we really wanted to be able to do the things that allowed us to nurture that culture and that talent base in the way that we thought would allow us to get to the commitments that Cisco had wanted. for us to deliver. So I, I think all of those things have to kind of sit at the core, what matters most to driving your customer and your team outcomes.

Yeah. And making sure that when you show up in that acquisition conversation, that you show up and ask for the things that you need. Yeah. I know, like I've talked to other friends that have kind of gone through this process with. larger companies that are acquiring them. And you may not get it into perpetuity.

Yeah. But you can kind of set up and say, Hey, I wanna reference this for this amount of time. This is what I think we'll need. And, and I think sometimes founders are afraid to do that because they're like, well, do I have the leverage? Do I have the power? Depending on like how sides, how large their company is, or whether or not they are already like profitable or they're already driving revenue.

Like, they're like, oh, well can I ask for these things? I mean, you can always ask. Um, yeah. As long as you're clear on what really matters. As long as you're clear on what really matters.  

Julian: Yeah. Within in this transition, what was, what, what's, what was the employee's reaction? I'm, I'm always curious on how do you communicate, a, a very , big transition, for lack of a better word, big transition into the structure in the organization, even the workflow of the company to your employees.

And how do you maintain that that trust with the employees that things will maintain the same and, and, the promises or, or the expectations for their development will, will remain within that transition to a larger. What was that reaction and how did you kind of, slowly transition or transition them into this organization to, to still be kind of running at full capacity?

Denise: I, I think our founders did a really great job of selling the opportunity, right? Yeah. I, I think there was like a moment I can't remember exactly how the conversation happened. But our founder at the time, like made reference on a very visible thing to us. They said, there's a container ship and it's out in the bay and today it might have, like one container in it that has our product in it.

And if we do the thing that we know that we're capable of doing and we drive the value that we know we can drive to our customers by bringing cloud management to something that had been really difficult to do before. Yeah. , there could be a whole container ship filled with our goods. There could be a device in every network in the world that we build and that we connect.

And, and I think that like, and. , being a part of the market leader in networking and security is only going to allow us to get to that end state sooner than if we tried to go at it alone. Yeah. And when you sell the opportunity to your team and you recognize like, hey, there, there's like a moment of sadness, right?

Like, I, I said to my boss at the time when Meraki was acquired, I was like, she was like, I know this is not what you came here to do. You came here to build a company. You came here to do this thing. Yeah. You had already worked at big companies and you were like, Hey, I think I want something different than that.

Yeah. But like, Hey, can you hang out for six months so that way we can kind of get through this acquisition motion and get into and all of these things. And she is already. Many things taking to company public, da, da, da. I'm still sitting here growing this business. But I, I think that there is, there is a path that you can bring people on if you can remind them of what you set out to do, and assuming that the.

Acquirer or the partner that you have gets you to that faster, those mission driven folks that you hired that had a view and a promise of what you were gonna do to change the world or change your industry or whatever. Like they believe that mission hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. And if you can help them see how you can get to that faster, better, have broader impact, I, I think you can take people through that moment.

But you have to be, You as a founder, you have to be on mission and you have to communicate in the way that people understand how we're gonna get closer to that as a part of being a part of this new thing versus Yeah. And trying to do it the way we were doing it before.  

Julian: Yeah. If you were to give any founder advice, who's, who's going through this transition, say, has employee.

Who don't want to transition into the new structured organization? How do you manage that conversation? Is, it might be a little bit of tension, some friction how do you clearly communicate or, or set expectations or just overall alleviate some of the some of the challenges for, for employees who say, Hey, I, I see the direction you guys want to.

I, for my career, I want to go a different direction. How can we make this kind of a split between, the organization and, and my career? How do you go through those conversations and, and what advice would you give founders who are going through that transition?  

Denise: Well, what I would give founders, the first piece of advice is like if the, this folks, these folks are really critical for the next six to 12 months of your organization's growth.

Write that into your deal. Like, make sure you make it, yeah. Give them the money. Give them whatever, feels meaningful to them to like hang out. Mm-hmm. To bring you through this transition point. Are these folks maybe that are gonna grow with your organization or this new company into perpetuity?

Maybe not, but like, I think a lot of people are like, well, if this is not for you, then you know, maybe it is time for you. Like maybe this is where we part ways. And I'm like, if they're critical to your success in this new organization, like yeah, don't give up the fight. So, . And for most people, you can buy a little bit more time if you put a little bit more money on the table.

So that's the first thing. But then the second part of it is like you gotta just acknowledge that. , things are not for everyone. Yeah. And I remember we had a sales leader and, we thought he was su, he was super critical to what we were going to do. And, we did the things we said, Hey, this is what we have for you , if you Yeah.

Stay. And he said, I remember this conversation really clearly. He said to me, Denise I have been on this journey before. I know what the journey to from a hundred million to 500 million looks like and it's a hell of a lot of fun. Yeah. . I also know what the journey from 500 million to a billion and to, and he is like, that's just not for me.

Like, it's not who I am and it's not how I'm wired and it's not the place that I'm in flow or I get joy out of work and you gotta honor that for folks and say, okay, I get it like. . And if that's the case, then I guess like, we, we kind of part ways and we assume that we, you never know when people might come back and realize that the problem that you're trying to still work on is something that is still interesting to them, even if your scale might have changed.

Yeah. But you, like you, you have to kind of know that on this journey of building a company, not everyone's going to come along with you the entire way, but you also have to do the things that you need to do to keep people as long as you know you need to keep them, especially in a situation where folks don't really feel like that long game is the one that they wanna be in with you anymore.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. It, it's, it's awesome to hear the, the respectfulness that, that you might have for someone that may not work out, but also, yeah, championing for the people that kind of will make the transition that much more successful. And, and just, being the advocate for, for what they want and versus what's beneficial for the company.

And it must be a hard kind of balance to, to. It, it, I think this que next next question. It's a little bit of a cheating question, but I'm curious to hear your answer. Thinking about kind of this whole high growth startup stage, I think there's a lot of buzzwords in what that may entail. But is there a playbook or is there a, a set of, of systems that you put in place as, as a COO?

To, operate or get to operating a company that is in high growth stage and define high growth for us. Is that increasing in the amount of revenue? Is that increasing in the amount of employee account? Is that a certain funding round? How would you define high growth? And then what are the systems that allow you to operate at that high level?

Denise: I mean, I would look at, what probably feels taxing to an organization is to grow like 30%. Like, call it bookings. And you can also throw employee count in there, like Yeah. When you start to grow that fast. Yeah. What, what I find happens is like the way that you used to operate, like every time you double, you need a new way.

Of operating. And so at 30%, like you start having to have a new way of operating. When you look at it from a compounded perspective, like very quickly and very often. Often like to the point where you just finally settle in your new operating model and then you've gotta change it all over again because you've added on.

So that's kind of how I would define hydro growth. . And in those periods of high growth, I think you've gotta be able to do things. You do a couple things. You have to be able to be very clear and plain-spoken about what your direction and what your value to your customers is like. I see a lot of organizations that show up and the PowerPoints and they're like, And I'm like, I'm like, well, what is a problem you're trying to solve?

And they go into this long story about what they're trying to solve. And I think to myself, well, if you're a high growth company and you take that many words to tell me, like what is a problem you're trying to solve? What I know is that inside of your organization, there are a lot of people that don't know what the hell you're doing like that you're doing.

Are they doing it? Or whatever. If you're growing that fast, yeah, it needs to be as clean as what, I stated in the beginning there's a container ship and da da, and we know that. . If I give you networking equipment or networking experience that you know is easy to deploy, drives high value and is cloud enabled, I can change the world.

And you tell people that and they go, okay, I got it. I know what we're doing, da da, da da da, and I didn't need 10,000 slides or whatever. Yeah. So in a high growth environment, like being very. On why you're here, what the problem is that you're trying to solve, and how, like what is the value, the two or three value items that allow you to solve that problem better than the competitors in the market.

Yeah. And then the second thing that I think you need is like, you need a way to keep the organization aligned when it's smaller. It could just be a handful of people sitting in a room and every week they're looking at the business and they're coming back out and letting people know where we're going and why, and they're fully aligned.

I think that's a mechanism that can happen when you're small and you're high growth. Yeah. When you get bigger, you have to be like, okay, I got layers of leadership to go through. What is the motion I'm gonna use? Is it OKRs? Is it this, is it this other thing? Yeah. Is it, and then you also then have to layer on a communication back to your employees that allow that to happen.

And a way to get feedback back from your employees to make sure that like, we really are aligned and, and, and we're really all moving in the same direction. And then the third thing I like. . Julian, I believe strongly that you create the team and if you build the right team in the right company, you can solve different customer problems over time as, yeah, your business grows, especially if it's growing really quickly.

And I've seen the power of team at Meraki where we. grown a business very quickly and we had, we hired some really great people that could grow along with it. Yeah. And we articulated and we continued and came back to articulating our culture. Every time we needed to change it in order to meet the needs and the stage of the business that we were in, we didn't set it and forget it on the team.

We didn't set it un forget it on the culture. We took the culture along in the journey. because It is how you actually build product. It is how you actually stay relevant in the market. You gotta have a strong team. You gotta have a team that really wants to be working together in the direction that you're going in.

And if you don't do that well and you don't nurture that, you cannot do high growth. Yeah. Like there are people. that like it means something to be a Moroccan. Yeah. Like they bleed green, like that's our color. Yeah. And, and, and whether they work here today or they don't, when they come back and they talk about the experience of working here, they talk about the energy and the impact and the fun that we had, delivering on our customer and team outcomes.

and if you're growing super fast, you need that. People cannot be in this thing if they don't trust each other. They cannot be in this thing together when, a lot of stuff is gonna be ambiguous if they don't rely on each other. Yeah. They're not gonna create magic if they don't feel like they're in a thing together that aligns with who they are as a person and what's important to them.

Yeah. And. . I think we like. That's sometimes easier to do when you're smaller cuz you're like, oh, I hired all these people. I know them. Like, . Yeah. , you grow 30% or a hundred percent and five seconds later you turn around. You don't know these people anymore. And if you haven't built the type of things in your organization to keep your culture strong you dilute one of the most powerful parts of moving quickly, which is team.

Julian: Yeah. How, how does hiring change as you continue to grow? And I'm assuming the interview process changes and maybe, maybe even the, the, the type of individual, your hiring changes. I'm assuming you're trying to keep the values consistent and, and people align. But how does the, the hiring change and what, what should, leadership consider as they grow and scale in terms of the type of person that, that they're bringing on to the, to the company?

Denise: Well, again, I, I always start with, well, what are we trying to solve at the stage of the business that we are? And let, let's make sure that we're really clear the types of capabilities someone has to have in order to be able to deliver that. But from a process perspective, what I've seen as we have grown is, we've really implemented things like structure and interviewing.

Where we sit down and we say, Hey, what does this job need to drive? And what are the capabilities that this person needs to be able to come to the table with or grow into? Or, like several different categories. And when we do the interview process, we really lean into that structured interview process because it allows for.

bias to come out of the system a bit. It allows for companies to really solve for a diverse talent base. The same, I come back to the same thing, like if we are really trying to grow 30% year over year plus, yeah. I need the wisdom of the crowd to do that. And if my crowd looks exactly the same, like.

I, I'm gonna get more wisdom if it doesn't especially if I'm trying to grow a global business serving, multiple markets or, a, a host of different types of customers. Yeah. And so our structured interview process really helps drive that through for us. And the most important part of that, obviously, is the questions in the interview.

But like a special sauce in it to me is the debrief. Like how do we hold ourselves accountable for saying, this is what we said we were looking for, and this is the person and this is kind of the skills that they were able to demonstrate in this process. And do we have the right person matched to this role?

Yeah. and that's one thing. And then we have also spent a lot of time building a really effective talent brand that talks to the market about what we are about. Yeah. Who we are as a team, what we value. And that's like a really great place for people to begin. They go, Hey, does this resonate with me? And if like that's a part of that journey, by the time that they get to your interview process, they're bought in to who you are as a team and they wanna be a part.

Yeah. And, and I think sometimes people forget that. Like they throw up a website and they're like, oh, it looks like everybody else's website and whatever. And I'm like, you have an opportunity to tell a compelling story about what part, like what stage of growth are you in and what are you looking for and why aren't you using that?

Yeah. So we really started to, we really started to rely on our talent brand. , sort of in this mid journey that we have been on. Yeah. And it really made a difference in how the talent that came to us, like people that were excited about the stage of growth that we were in. Yeah.

We were getting those folks coming. But who you hire changes? We start. Yeah. We have a lot of generalists, myself included, like where my boss was. I don't know. You're not exactly what I was looking for, but you can do a lot of things. Alright, come, come, come. Let's finish this thing together. Right? And you hire a lot of that in the beginning and that's great because there's a lot of stuff to do and you gotta like get people that have like the capabilities maybe to do a lot of things kind of well because that's the pace of a, you're operating and then you have to realize when you've.

Kind of gotten to a point, a transition point where you may start to need to go really deep in a particular area and then you have to start to hire differently. And I think some people get caught. They keep hiring the generalist and we have moved into a specialist moment in some parts of the organization, not in all of them.

And, and they keep hiring into that profile of like, oh, I've got a jack of all trades, I've got a utility player. And I was like, you always need them in an organization where you need them. when you need them. Those things change as you kind of go along with the, with the size and the scope of the organization.

So yeah, that was a long way to answer your question. Yeah. But I , I, I think that's kinda some of the things that we thought about along the way.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And, and one thing I I'm always curious about thinking about culture and thinking about as companies grow is how do. I, I guess consider or, or push initiatives where, you're hiring people who aren't, there's a big stereotype of, of the type of tech professional, and I think we all might know that, cisgender, non bipo kind of individuals.

How do you as, as in leadership kind of push and be consistent about initiative of bringing. People or employees into, a growing organization. When, when it's, when it's traditionally very difficult, not only to assess the talent, but also their representation through their experience seems a little less, I guess, linear as, as some of the other applicants that, that you might be seeing.

What are some ways that you really push for diversity and inclusion and, hiring individuals who come from maybe not as linear backgrounds? Traditionally they other companies might hire from, how do you go about that?  

Denise: I work there, so if I have a resume that no recruiter would ever understand, but I, I, I think what I, the thing I mentioned before, like being like the structured interviewing process, being really clear about what you are actually looking for and trying to disrupt your own pattern matching, right?

Mm-hmm. . , I used to be like, oh, I, I like these types of people. And then, and then I had to say to myself, well, what does it actually mean? Like, yeah, , what, what is it about those folks that have made them successful in the organization? Like, let's talk about it in skills and capabilities as opposed to like, a person like this

Yeah. And then it's amazing what happens when you sit down and say, okay, what I'm looking for when I say a person like this, Someone that has a growth mindset, someone that defaults to action some, like when I start to say those things, that becomes much easier to Yeah. Look like, take a ta like a person through the equation and, and actually ask the types of questions that would help me understand whether or not they have these Yeah.

Very clear capabilities that I'm looking for. That's one thing. I think the second thing, you just have to have a commitment from leader. When we were on a journey at Meraki around our culture, we had a leader that wanted to build a place where people belonged. Yeah. Like, and he went and used. , the most powerful addresses that we had in our business at the time, sales kickoffs and, and AMAs.

And he went in front of those folks when they expected him to be coming and be like, oh, we're selling this. Are we selling this? And he drove messages and said, this is what is top of mind to me. Mm-hmm. . And this is the right thing to do for our business. Like this will make our business. And he changed the conversation and changed the commitment.

And, and then the last thing I would say is that then you have to have a data driven journey. Yeah. And we did that. We looked at all of our data. We said like, where are we? Not as strong. How can we build the types of structures and accountability points that allow us to kind of get to the outcome that we're looking for?

And the collection of those things, like some of them are process. Driven actions that you take and you determine what processes you need by looking at your data. Yeah. And really, partnering with consultants, which is what we did, we partnered with a data driven consultancy called Paradigm, and they looked at all of our data and they really helped us map out a process to become a more inclusive place.

We had leadership that was like, this is not. And add on, this is a core part of how we operate and the culture that we have. It is in our values that everybody is in. Yeah. And then, like, and then we moved forward with the grace and humility that we were not gonna get it right every single time.

And when we didn't, we owned up to it. We fixed it. And we moved. Yeah. Right. And creating a more inclusive space is not, IM. But it does require intention and it requires that you believe that it is a critical part of your business strategy. Yeah, and I think sometimes that's where we don't get it right in the tech world, is that people think it's an add-on.

Yeah. Like, oh, when I get my business right, I will. Or it's a nice to do because I'm a nice person, or I mean, I've heard a whole bunch of,

Julian: yeah.  

Denise: But it's gotta be integral. It's gotta be supported by process and data driven analysis, and then it's gotta have leadership commitment where it's not additional, it's, it's, it's integral.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like if, if I were to, try to assemble a puzzle together without a picture, Got the picture, you don't know what you're, you're aiming towards, but with the picture, you can at least start to, bring the pieces together. And like you said, they might not match, but you, you kind of reiterate and, and, and improve during the process.

Tell us a little bit about the traction of, of Cisco Iraqi and where's the company now? What's excited, what's exciting about the previous year of growth and what are you excited about this year? Where, where is the company going in terms of its direction?  

Denise: I'm always excited about what we're doing. I guess that's why it's worth here. I, I, again, I sort of coming back to this conversation around customer. Um-huh. We're really seeing, and you can kind of see it regardless of whether you're talking about networking or security, like you're big, you're seeing sort of the transition and the power of the cloud. and when we started on this journey 10 years ago, I think people thought cloud networking was going to be like this little, Niche.

Niche. You niche, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody would wanna do that. They wouldn't wanna, put their very important critical business infrastructure in the cla, like pe, the world. A hundred like very different, hundred 80 degrees different, right? Like totally different. Like people are thinking about the cloud differently.

And I think we continue to have sort of leadership in, in cloud networking and iot and we are really positioned well. Yeah, to drive. a platform strategy around that. I mean, we have, core networking, but then we have iot and, and then we have kind of insights and, and, and really we are able to deliver on this idea of intentional networking where, not just like, oh, is my network up, but like what are my business objectives?

Yeah. And how is technology and data and insights. And, and sometimes things like iot allowing me to get to those business outcomes. And I think the. and the strength of our platform, it has never been better. Yeah. And, and we're also sort of adding in pieces of Cisco's broader infrastructure into the Meraki dashboard.

So we're bringing more of Cisco's powerful technology into a cloud environment, which is really exciting. Yeah. And like when you think. what's at play at Cisco and the power of the technologies that they have. And then if you can kind of drive it to infrastructure that's actually easier to deploy, easier to drive insights from, easier to deliver customer outcomes with.

I don't like, I, I get really excited about that. Yeah. And, and I think that like a lot of people look as at, at, at like a company like ours and they, oh, well it's infrastructure, it's this. And I'm like, no. , it's enablement of the business outcomes that you have, and we can do it better, faster and more effectively by virtue of the breadth of technology solutions that Cisco has.

And so I, I get excited about that because the world is a platform play, like iPhone is a platform. It is like it. And like we are in the midst of the platform revolution, and I think we're really positioned well.  

Julian: Yeah, it's incredible to to see how Cloud, first of all, has become almost table stakes to running a business now.

And, and as your company grows, the insight into how it's operating is even that much more crucial to knowing where you're gonna go and what direction you should go and, the data piece. I, I completely agree. The more you know about how technology is affecting your business outcomes the, the better you can prepare and strategize on, on how your business is gonna move forward, and also where you currently are if you're burning capital or, or if you're, on a growth stage or whatever kind of initiative you're running that really allows you to, to take on and, and be more, I guess, strategic, intelligent about about the way you're, you're moving.

What are some of the biggest risks that Cisco Meraki faces today?  

Denise: I mean, I think it's the risk that anyone has, like, yeah. Do you have the right talent for the, the biggest problems that your business and your customer has? And I think that like any, like anybody that gets on this podcast, that probably should be the biggest risk that everybody has.

Like, did I do, did I get the right people in the. That can solve for my next phase of growth or, the next opportunity that I have in my business. And, we're constantly asking ourselves that question and, and making sure that if we have vehicles to grow the talent that we have, so that way they can be the right talent to answer the questions that our customers and our business has.

And we have the right, brands in the marketplace to continue to attract the, the highest caliber talent. So that's always the number one risk. . The second thing I think is I, I think that there is a risk of scale. There's always a risk of scale. Like the bigger you get, connecting these pieces gets a little bit more complex and requires the, the highest level of intention.

Hmm. Like, there's that thing like if you get a hundred people, like your, your natural human connections break at a hundred people, I think it's something, or 150 people. And then you have to do a lot of things in order to get that 160 or 200 people to kind of come back together. When you're talking about 2000 people, 3000 people, 10,000 people, like the level of intention that is required to keep those folks engaged, to keep those folks aligned and, and to keep those.

Delivering extraordinary outcomes Yes. Is high and I, it is always a risk. Yeah. The bigger you get, the more you can do. And there is a risk of then narrowing down the things that you must do. Yeah. And that is the risk of scale, because, if you're running a great business, like we're running like.

A thousand things that you could dedicate your time and your priority to. Because there's always like, oh, I think we can grow 10 million here, or I think this is a hundred million opportunity and da, da, da. But all of that comes at the risk of not doing something else. Right? Right. And when you get larger, this act of pruning and focus is always a risk.

, what's that? So I would say like, and so these things are not like today. They were the same things that we were worried about before. Because I think if you're constantly looking at that mm-hmm. , some of the other things will, they'll work their way out. Sure. , they'll fix themselves. But like, if you're like, okay, am I listening to my customers?

Have I focused on the right things that I need to be focused on? Have I figured out a way to get all the people in my organization depending on how big they. In touch with what our customers need and how we need to deliver on that. It's the biggest risk that businesses have. And when you see them fail, they failed on one of those dimensions.

They stopped listening to the customer. They didn't have a way to stay customer first and connected. They didn't have a way to prune. And focus. Yeah. Where they didn't have a way to continue to bring the best and the brightest and the most engaged to solve the problems at hand and like, , there's a, a gazillion business cases from Stanford and Harvard and all of the shenanigan that goes on in those places Yeah.

That basically are telling the same story. Bob looked out the window, Susan looked out the window, and like if you boil down their problem, it's, yeah. It's, it's one of those three things.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I a hundred percent agree. And I guess I'm also curious on a personal. Is is the same thing that inspired you to join Meraki still motivating you today? And if not, what's changed?  

Denise: I still think that we are changing an industry and I am a person that likes to change things. ? Yeah. . So, that continues to be a motivation for me. I, when I look back at my career, I have spent a lot of, like the thing that like threads. It is like, I believe in the power of engaged and creative and hold people to do amazing and incredible things.

And I get really excited about bringing people together to sort solve hard. And, and putting them on mission for themselves. Right. , we're still doing that. Yeah. And because you're still doing that, I'm like, you're still, speaking my love language for lack of a better way of describing it. And, and I, and I think that's what keeps people at a company like it has to align with the values that you have and, and the things that get you out of bed in the morning and building great teams and Yeah.

And great businesses that are wanting to disrupt and to deliver better outcomes for their customers. What I wake up to do every day. Getting to do that here. So, it's the reason why I showed up. And it's, I'm lucky. Like, I had a dinner with my peers last night, and I think I laughed so much that like, I got home and like, like my jaws were like were a little tired and like we spend so much time at.

and if you're a founder and that's not the type of thing you're building. , like, you're gonna have to pay people more. You're gonna have to, you're gonna have to put a lot of infrastructure around this thing in order to get people to care at the level that I see our leadership team caring yeah. For our business and for our team, and it, it's at a visceral level that, that we have built this business.

It, it means something incredibly special to all of us. And yeah, and I think that's why I keep showing up every day , is because I have that level of care for the team and the, and our customers  

Julian: I love that. I love that. I always like to ask this next question. For selfish research purposes, but also for my audience whether it was early in your career or now, what books or people have influenced you the most?

Denise: Well I started my career, my first job outta college was to build a nonprofit. And so we got a little bit of seed money, like in this early movement. Which was like venture capital capital, but for NGOs and social service organizations and community organizations and community organizing and stuff like that.

So it's called the Echoing Green Foundation, which still exists today, which is amazing. Turning out amazing organizations like City Year and Teach for America Jumpstart and all these things. And I started my career there working in communities to try to figure out how. The inherent resources with the community can really change outcomes from young people, and I met a lot of amazing people.

and one of the people I met with this is this community organizer, and then he went on he was a politician and ended his career at mit, sort of, as a professor there, but running an organization that allowed for people to come to MIT and, and learn and grow and then take those resources back to their communities.

Yeah. And he continues to be A real source of inspiration to me because he's like, every time I was making a career change, he and I used to play tennis together when I lived in Boston. And every time I was making a career change, I'd go to him and go, well, what? And he was like, ask the question, well, what impact do you think you can have?

And I would go, wow. . I mean, I think it's like this, and then you'd be like, mm. Does that feel worthy of your time? Like, yeah. We have these conversations and it really set me up for saying, well, what kind of career do I wanna have? Yeah. Like, what kind of impact do I wanna have? And it has guided me through my entire career.

Yeah. I don't make decisions on like, well, how much money can I make? Or da da da. I go, well, what is the impact that I'm trying to have? And is this worthy of my time? and allows me to have that impact. And just the beginning of this year, this community organization that I helped to build, there were two young women in it that were rock stars when they were fixing and whatever, but like one of them is now a city council member at large in the city of Boston, and one of them is now a state senator.

And the city council member was holding the, I think it was a bible and the other young woman was being sworn in. And when I, like, yeah, I think about what this journey is for me as a person and an executive or whatever. It's, it's about the impact. Yeah. And in a corporate environment, it's the impact that we can have for our customers.

And I have great stories at Meraki where our customers show up and say, I used to be able to do this, I can do this now. And it's a world of difference to me. Yeah. And I showed up at Meraki because I worked at a school and I knew that if we could. technology in the way that Meraki would allow our head of it to do.

He could then turn around and really be focused on student outcomes as opposed to keeping a network up. Yeah. and I don't know, like I wake up every morning wanting impact. And so when I look at the people that matter to me or have guided my career, there are the people that fundamentally continue to ask that question to me.

What is the impact that you're trying to have? And is this the thing that really keeps you in a place where you feel like you're driving as much of it as you can? We have a short number of years on the planet. and you wanna leave it better than you found it. And it's probably not a conversation that a lot of people have when they're talking about their corporate career, but like, I love it when people get promoted.

Yeah. I one day hope to work for some of the people that currently work for me. Like I, that's a game I'm in, but love that. As for books, I'm now reading this thing 7 Rules of Power because I'm trying to get more comfortable with this idea that you need some of that in order to get shit done. So I , I'm leaning into place comfort for me, but when I think about the thing that has guided my career, I come back to Mel King every single day.

What is the impact that you're trying to have? And is the thing that you are doing worthy enough of your time to drive that?  

Julian: I love that. That's such a, it's a simple but but powerful question to ask yourself. And also you answered, I guess, quote unquote, right, or, or answered in, in, in honesty, I feel like that's enough motivation to push past all the external things that you really can't control.

Because intrinsically, you kind of have a compass. So thank you for sharing that. And I know we're at the end of our show and, and I think we could talk I hours on end about, not only how you're structuring the business and running it, but also your story and your background and the experiences you've had.

So we'll have to do something like a part two to, to this episode. But last little bit is I always like to give our guests a chance to tell us where we can learn more about your company and, and what you're doing, and even yourself. What are your plugs? Give us, where we, where we can learn more about Cisco Meraki, the websites, the LinkedIns, the Twitters.

Where can we find you and, and maybe even work with you in, in helping companies kind of have a, have a more up to date and, and better cloud infrastructure. .  

Denise: All right. We're lucky. You go to Google Cisco Meraki you'll find us I Twitter handle @meraki. So lots of places on the social network to, to find us. And I, I do think that our website not only tells a great story about our talent, but it tells a great story about our business and, and it has a lot of customer stories in it. Yeah. And so folks can kind of hear not only what are we doing on behalf of our customers, but like, what's the type of team that's getting us there? So I would point people in that direction to learn a little bit more about us, but we.

Twitter, LinkedIn I think we might even have TikTok, but I would not know cause I'm not on TikTok, but I believe you have that too.  

Julian: amazing. Denise, it was so incredible to learn about your story, the company's transition, where it is now, what still inspires you. And I hope you enjoyed yourself on the show, but thank you so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast.

Denise: Well, thanks Julian for having me. I, it's nice to all of these, like, it was nice to take a step back and really think about these things as we were talking about them.  

Julian: Amazing. Well, I hope you enjoyed this and thank you again.