Julian: Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have Annafi Wahed, founder and CEO of The Flip Side. The Flip Side is a startup on a mission to help bridge the gap between liberals and conservatives. Building the salon to Twitter's Town Square. Wow. What a tagline.

Annafi, thank you so much for joining. You know, the show today and I'm excited that we were chatting before the show, not only about your background experience, but also kind of what communication is within, you know, the political landscape and Anna, how, you know, I'm excited about how technology can kind of help, you know, uncover and unveil a lot of the facts and truths around, you know, what is kind of being distributed in terms of information.

But before we get into all that, I have a question. During your experience in. Was there often times where you saw both sides wanted the same thing, but didn't agree? And, and what was the, what was the reason why A lot of times the two parties, or two sides of a thought or perspective don't, don't agree.

Is it, Is it based on some fundamental principles or the topic? What in your experience have you seen?

Annafi: Oh, wow. You, You started with a heavy hitter, . Yeah. . So often the end goals are the same. The end goals are, you know, we want a good education for our children, we want access to good jobs, we want a, you know, clean environment, et cetera.

Yeah. The question is how do we get there? Right? What is the role of government? I think that's a sort of underlying question that underpins so many debates that we're having today. So even if you agree with the end goal, if you think government is a bunch of, you know, faceless bureau, Who don't pay attention to the average person, you're not going to want a new government program to address that goal.

Right? Yeah. Versus if you have, I myself worked in the federal government and worked on political campaigns. I have seen firsthand how hard, you know, federal workers, uh, state agency employees work. And so I have a very different view, and I think with a country as large as ours, with so many state, local, and federal agencies, everyone's experience has been so different, right.

We, as humans are experiencing. 0.0 0, 0 0 1% of the human experience, each of us. Right? Right. But that is informing so much of what we think, right? We think our experience, right, is indicative of the whole uh, system. So that's what I try to do when I talk to folks, get to the underlying questions like, okay, why do you distrust the media?

Why do you distrust politicians? Why do you distrust big business? Right On The Flip Side, What I just said. Right? A lot of people think all corporations are bad, right? And certainly Jeff Bezos is not doing anything to counter that . Um, But there are a lot of great business people, right? Yeah. Small corporations, large corporations, et cetera.

So, I, I think once you get to the root causes of people's beliefs, you start to, you can have much better conversations than the talking points you see on cable news.  

Julian: Yeah, it, It's so fascinating how, kind of what you said really resonated where it's like we experience a small, you know, portion of, of of the whole human experience, but that influences kind of our, uh, viewpoint in terms of maybe even thinking that people are going through the same experience without really going to the root of, of, you know, what they've gone through.

But in terms of just like the conversation and communication that people are where are they having most of it and where are people getting their information? And is there a better way to do so from what we've, you know, previously been engaged with as, as a population?  

Annafi: Yeah. So once upon a time, there were only a handful of TV channels, a handful of national newspapers, and then your local papers, right?

So everyone was reading the same information or watching the same news. Today everything is dispersed, right? So Gen Z is watching TikTok videos. People in our thirties we're still on Twitter for, I don't know what reason. There's Facebook groups for, you know, the older generation and then all of the news outlets.

Their information is being filtered through the big tech platforms, Facebook, Twitter. TikTok. And so you have, and of course now they're CK right? So you've got your New York Times, you've got ck, you've got your TikTok influencer, and people are processing all this information through their phones. And so they think all three of these things are the same thing, but they're not, right?

Mm-hmm. a New York Times, um, article, a Wall Street Journal National Review article. There is a lot more fact checking and just sort of verifying information that goes. Yeah, that may or may not be true for your sub commentator, and that's less, much less likely to be true even for your TikTok influencer.

And so I think just the disparate ways we're consuming information all through the same device right at the same time is sort of warping our brain.  

Julian: Yeah. And what would you say, you know, something with TikTok that's so fascinating and obviously it's been in the news a lot recently because of, you know, certain restrictions that certain, you know, parties or, or people or bodies of people want to maybe deploy on it and filter through some of the information.

But there is some benefit to kind of getting a ground level conversation going within, you know, a community of people. Where is the gap in terms of you. How we're processing that information and how maybe we're not, I guess, fact checking or doing our due diligence outside of that. And is, is there an area or location that um, we can go to?

Because I will, I will be honest, I'm not the most trusting of the New York Times just because of maybe some perspective articles that I didn't like the way they were going, but that's my personal opinion. But not to influence anybody else's. Where can we kind of go to get that information? Because as a, as a user, , it's hard to find out who to trust or who who to acknowledge as, as um, accredited.

Annafi: Absolutely. That's such a great question and I think there are. So to your earlier point, yes, there is so much value in having average people just share their thoughts, right? And it gives you just a different sense of what's going on, right? A new story about immigration is very much enriched if you hear from an actual immigrant to say, Hey, I know this article written about the H1B visa process is very technical, but let me tell you about my experience, right?

Like how much richer are we as a society that we. Ha share stories with each other across state lines, across country lines, across oceans. Like what an amazing thing that we have built. But unfortunately, we're still in the very early stages of designing online platforms in a way that Yeah. Actually encourages the, the more thoughtful and deep and nuanced takes, right?

Yeah. Think of it this way. We've had 10,000 years of civilization where we've learned to curate communities and bring together people in real life. When you have a dinner, When you have a wedding, you think about the seating arrangements. You think about the venue, you think about the music. Oh, should we do it at a coffee shop or a bar, right?

Yeah. Um, But online spaces, we just brought together millions of people that said, go. Right. Just imagine what that would look like in real life. And with online you have fake identities. You have all of these other layers that make it even harder. And so what we think is really valuable and what we are building is we need both trusted sources of information, right?

So those, these are the publications that actually have journalists on the ground, that have fact checkers, that have editorial. Teams, you know, checking to verify information, and also a place for online communities. Right now you have the publications operating in one realm, and then the social media operating in the other.

We are at the intersection of news and civic dialogue, right? That's what we're building. We are fact checking and curating commentary from a multitude of publications and then opening our forum to say, okay, on this topic, you have now read these plethora of resources we have provided you. Now you can hopefully have a more informed discussion.

Julian: Yeah. It, it's fascinating that, you know, kind of just allowing the opportunity to filter through accredited information or information that's been vetted and, and even all the different sources can really kind of give you a w. Lens of, uh, of what's going on, where then you can make your own opinions.

Because obviously I think it's easier to listen to someone kind of agree with their opinion and move on from the topic versus listen to someone, formulate the ideas around your own opinion and experience, and then ha have kind of your own perspective, but before we go, you know, deeper into, to The Flip Side, what originally got you into politics.

Tell us a little bit about your journey into not only politics, but then, you know, startup and actually, you know, building a company around something that, you know, you're extremely passionate about.  

Annafi: Oh, gosh, yeah. I've had a little bit of a meandering journey to where I am now as I think many startup founders have.

After college I spent four years in finance. I had student loans and I didn't know what else to do with my life, you know? I thought, oh, okay. It really seemed like the path of least resistance. I, in the summer of 2016, was working as a senior consultant at Ernston Young. That is to say I was spending 80 plus hours staring at spreadsheets and helping bankers, federal regulations, because I started my career actually as a bank regulator at the F D I C.

And then I sold my soul, uh, to go into consulting. And I think, financial regulations are actually interesting in some ways, but I wasn't enjoying the work and I didn't really um, feel like I was having the kind of positive impact I wanted to have in the world. And given that the presidential cycle was, you know, in full swing and I was looking at the poll numbers and just thinking, Wow.

Who are these people that, that are voting for Trump? Right. I'm, I'm liberal on the liberal half of The Flip Side. My co-founder is, is staunch conservative. And so it, it was really just curiosity, a need to do something different. It was the sort of perfect blend. Uh, yeah, I put in my two weeks notice.

And drove up to New Hampshire and spent the last four months of the 2016 cycle knocking on doors trying to get people to vote for Democrats. And it was an amazing experience, right? Even the Republicans and New York were different from the Republicans in New Hampshire, right? Yeah. These are rural farmers.

These are folks who have small businesses. These are folks who, uh, have a. A very different perspective on government than I was faced with. And it really just felt like entering a parallel universe in, in a great way. And that sparked my curiosity to go into conservative media as a whole. So The Flip Side started as a side project a few months after the election in 2017.

And for a long time it, it was just, just a passion project I was working on. I spent another two years in the nonprofit sector, uh, working, uh, with a great financial counseling, a nonprofit, trying to use my powers of evil for good. Um, But eventually I found my co-founder along the way. Eventually, we just realized just what a great need there is for what we were doing.

And so, even though I had. . I never pictured myself as an entrepreneur. It really was me, uh, me and my co-founder trying to solve this problem and realizing no one else was doing this. Yeah. And so we make the leap and here we are two years later.  

Julian: Yeah. It's incredible to obviously, like, like you said, the meandering founder journey is definitely one that a lot of people can attest to, myself included.

And is this is exciting because you end up gathering along the. You know, what you like, what you don't like, but also what you are willing to push through in terms of the challenges and kind of validating, you know, that internal motivation and being able to push through to building a product and taking feedback and being really, you know, uh, I guess disconnected from, you know, the success of the company as a project versus as yourself.

But I'm interested to hear a little bit more about kind of the Your co-founded relationship, you said he's a staunch conservative, that complete opposite end of, of um, you know, what your perspective is. How do you two kind of maintain a, a, a, I guess, a solid and transparent communication through, you know, probably very different perspectives?

Is it coming to common ground? What, what in particular helps you to kind of get along and, and, you know, think about the company from a different lens?  

Annafi: Absolutely. We're very similar in some ways in that we are both very nerdy. We're news junkie is at heart. We're very data driven, right? So on the one hand, we can have philosophical discussions and come to very different conclusions, but we're we, can, we really like to understand the logic, right?

So, It's easy to say, well, healthcare is a human right. Well, okay, but how are you going to scale Medicare for all, right? Like, what does that actually look like? Is that feasible given what we know about the inefficiencies of federal government, et cetera. Right. So it's sort of, again, it's, we have different, uh, I think perspectives.

Yeah. But we. really like to just learn, right? We're, we are constantly sharing articles with each other and studies that we found. Um, And I think it works really well because we're able to challenge each other at that level. At the fact checking at the study, at the, oh, you, did you see this? Did you see that level?

And much less so it's not personal, right? Like there's no right answer to what is the right level of government intervention, what is the right level? Yeah. Uh, you know, business regulation. These are all questions that, you know, we are constantly grappling with as a society and things are constantly changing, right?

What is needed today in the role of government and role of businesses is very different from what was needed 50 years ago. Um, So we actually get along really great. And I should add, we have a third co-founder now. In the last year, we've added a cto who's also, again, news junkie at heart. news junkie at heart. Um, We all love.

Yeah. Debate the topic of the day. Yeah. And figure out, you know, how we see the world so differently. I think I've gained such a deep respect for conservative values and the Republican party, uh, just by getting to know my team and really again, learning about their experiences. Right. It's so much easier to understand someone's perspective when you know, oh, this is what their childhood was like, oh, this is what their family is like.

And again, at the end of the day, it's about that human.  

Julian: Yeah, it's, uh, this is a, an interesting question, or I think it's interesting, and maybe just a selfish question, but how do you com communicate or discuss an issue and a solution, a problem and a solution, uh, without. challenging someone's values, you know, from like a fundamental level because, you know, you, you mentioned earlier when you go through these discussions, a lot of times you wanna focus on the problem, you know, how can we, you know, create better education, create better work environments and all this, but without challenging the values of someone, but coming to an agreement, which I feel like is a lot of the reasons why things don't move forward in government is because it almost feels like the convers.

intrinsically challenging the values versus, you know, focusing on the problem. How, how can, How can we do that? And how have you seen that be done  successfully?  

Annafi: Yes, great question. I think first it's important to ask open-ended questions, right? Mm-hmm. so Yeah. And less so defend your position and more, help me understand where you're coming from.

Oh, what makes you say this? Have you seen this policy work at a diff in a different country or at a state? Right. So I think just asking for more information actually solves a lot of issues that, that people have when they're talking past each other. Or, oh, where did you get your information? Right? If they read an article that has false information, right?

Then you can say, oh, I just read this article and I think there's actually some, you know, misinformation here, let me show you the data. Right. So there's a lot of just asking those open-ended questions. Yeah. There's also. You sort of have to set the table for those conversations, right? If I am in the middle of something and someone's trying to have a deep conversation with me, I'm not going to be as engaged.

So it's important to say, Hey, I'm looking to have an in-depth conversation with you right now. You know, do you have the bandwidth? And then when things get to heated, it's okay to say, I need a break, or this is making me angry. You know, why don't we come back to this later? So really, that self-awareness is very important and making sure.

when things start to get heated, you need to be clear, Hey, this is getting heated. Are you actually upset or are you just defending your position, you know, boldly, right? So just making sure to check in with each other as the conversation is going. Yeah. And. , it's okay to say, you know, I still disagree with you but, but thank you for sharing your view and, and continuing that conversation a few weeks later if you still want to.

Yeah. I think people get really caught up in trying to win an argument , and often that just means that the other person got tired of you and left, right? Yeah. . So I. Sure you won as in like you posted the last comment in the thread but then that person thinks you're annoying. So Yeah. . And so just trying to find that down.

Julian: Yeah. It's so funny. It reminds me of a conversation I just had with, uh, an uncle of mine, uh, during Thanksgiving. And I asked that question because it's hard to reconcile what is taken from that convers. , whether it's, you know, okay, we're still in disagreement, but we respect each other's perspective and then we can move on, versus kind of sitting in, in an interesting place where nobody necessarily has heard each other.

and, And it's like, it's difficult because you know, without pulling up, you know, going into a, a really deep discussion. I agree. You almost need to set the table for the work that needs to be done to kind of discuss a topic. You know. Exactly. It can't be done in a casual conversation from what I understand, unless you're in a, in agreement with whoever you're speaking with.

But talk about flip side. How has been, how's the journey been kind of going through the corporate world, going through nonprofit now? As a founder and as a person of color it's always, I think people don't value. Or I maybe don't, uh, really understand the intricacies of the experience as a person of color, as a founder, not only with fundraising, but building and having conversations.

How has that experience been and what are some challenges you've had, but also what are some, you know, really, uh, exciting wins that you've had that kind of motivate you to, to continue forward? .  

Annafi: Oh my gosh. So many, uh, so many stories I can tell . Um, First of all, it's been long, exhausting, fulfilling, all of the above.

Um, it's painful. There's been a lot. Exactly. So much personal growth. Um, Yeah, uh, I think so. In the beginning when it was just a side project, right? We didn't have any funding. We didn't know what we were doing, and so it was very much trial by fire. And when you don't have any funding right, you have to be scrappy.

You have to learn. Yeah. To just, just get out there. I went to so many networking events in New York. And that's how my first op-ed in the Wall Street Journal was published. I happened to be at an event that had someone from the Wall Street Journal's editorial team there, and I told him my story. I told him about my journey.

Yeah. That I had literally just visited attended cpac. Uh, and he thought it was really interesting that as I was a former Clinton staffer who went to cpac, which is a conservative and he said, oh, are you writing about it? And I said, sure. And I wrote an op-ed that night, sent it to him at 4:00 AM , three hours later at 7:00 AM He just sent a one sentence email, we'll take it.

And I said, click it. Where? What ? Yeah. So that was in 2018. At that point I think we only had 500 subscribers. Uh, yeah. And overnight we had 5,000. After this op-ed was. Right. And suddenly I was on Fox and Friends, and then I was on the Young Turks and I was published in the USA Today and the Hill. So you need those sort of small spark moments.

Yeah. And so on the one hand, right, I was lucky that I happened to meet him. On the other hand, that was the 50th, 60th, 70th event I had attended. So you kind of have to make your own luck. I always. . And so that really got us going. And then two years later when we decided to pursue it full-time and we're looking for funding, we had about 20,000 subscribers.

And we were very lucky when I sent a letter. Wow, hey, I'm quitting my day job and we're looking for funding. Four people from our subscriber list reach out. One of them ended up investing a half a million dollars. wow. Wow. So I didn't even do a cold pitch. He just was such a fan of what we were doing, our mission.

And so that was really amazing. We're actually in the middle of our second fundraising round, and this time it's been very different. Yeah. Um, it's very funny. Early on when we were pre-revenue, it was just an idea on a napkin. Right. And. It was was just this aspirational thing. Now we have a newsletter with a quarter million subscribers.

We're actually generating revenue. We have a premium subscription, we have ad advertising, and we launched our new forum that I mentioned. And so now the questions are very different. Now the questions are, oh, why does it take so long for someone to sign up? This UX sucks this, that, and the other. . So , it's actually weirdly harder now because it's no longer on a napkin.

It's real. But even still, we already have 300,000 committed. We're looking to raise a full million. So, uh, being in the thick of it is, it's really, we're still, you know, , our newsletter goes out five days a week. Uh, we're shipping new code for our new platform every week and we're fundraising. So it's a lot.

But I would not have it any other way. I mean, yeah, it's just constantly meeting wonderful people. We just connected with. Uh, a congressman who is an avid reader of The Flip Side, which was really amazing. Blake Moore in Utah. We just connected with Tim Schreiber, uh, who has an organization called Unite.

So it's just been an amazing experience. I do think the fact that I'm a, you know, female minority, first time non-technical founder, uh, is hurting our fundraising abilities but, but I think it also makes us really scrappy and really makes us. Ensure that we're using every dollar, you know, in the most efficient way possible.

Yeah. And the people who are backing us, you know, our, uh, first angel investor and our current lead investor just incredible people. And I'm so thankful, uh, for their support. So, yeah it's been Whew. A rollercoaster.  

Julian: Yeah. No, it's incredible to, to hear the journey and the story and, uh, yeah.

The, The all, all, all the kind of. All, All the buzzwords you use to check off the boxes, it's like it does sometimes. You know, I think some people would say, put you at a disadvantage, but you know, from my experience, it puts you in a really interesting seat for when things do go well and things start to compound on itself to kind of validate and not only the technology, but the experience and the perspective that you're coming in from is really cool.

My family's from Mexico and, you know, I'm a Mexican American and, uh, it's awesome to. Other people of color successfully kind of build companies, but also influence a very holistic perspective. Because I think, you know, there, there might be some people don't realize the seesaw of cultural values that also influence perspective as well.

What's been the biggest challenge outside of fundraising and building? Actually, I'm gonna circle, I'm gonna, I'm gonna circle back to that question in a. , how do you view building right now? And especially with a kind of a news and media outlet and you do ads and you're focusing on that kind of revenue premium subscriptions.

But what more kind of can be built, you kind of have this amazing funnel of information that's offering two perspectives. How do you think about building and what types of technology are you looking to, uh, inject into what you already have?  

Annafi: Sure. So our underlying hypothe. One of many is, is that the era of horizontal networks is over, right?

Yeah. The Facebook, the Instagram, the Twitter, where you're going there for. sports scores and the weather and traffic alerts and your best friend's engagement photo and the birthday party and the book club, right? That's done with, right? Yeah. Nobody thinks that any of these experiences are the best that can be had in a Facebook group,

So the future is vertical, right? We are focused exclusively on politics, news, and current events, right? There are wonderful platforms being built for book lovers and your c. Uh, neighborhood community watch and people to talk exclusively about stocks and mental health and all of these different communities will are going to start to branch out and build the platforms that work for them, and we're really excited about that, right?

Again, we do this already in real life. We don't go to the bar in the morning and we don't go to the. shop at night, usually, right? Like there's different places and venues and ambiances for different things. And I think that's what's going to, uh, really drive the. sort of culture moving forward. Now, what that does mean is that not everyone's going to be in the same place, right?

There's a, so there's going to be friction as you find your community and rebuild your communities in these new platforms, but that's actually really exciting, right? Because that means we can be different versions of ourselves, right? My book lover version, my. You know, political nerd version, AFI and my, you know, Pittsburgh afi, they're not all the same and they shouldn't be.

Yeah. Um, and so, And so I think that's really exciting in terms of, you know, unfortunately I don't think the news and political cycles will slow down anytime soon. We actually wish it would, right In the last hour we got an, you know, even more news, uh, about attorney general assigning a special counsel.

Uh, looking into biden's, uh, classified documents that were found, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, so always an exciting time. In fact, too exciting. We wish the new cycle would slow down, especially because everyone now expects us to, you know, digest everything and have a newsletter out on that topic. Yeah. The next day.

And I think it really, we have to set the bar and say, look, we need one more day to verify the information. . So this sort of instant news cycle that moves so quickly, too quickly for anyone to know what really happened is really troubling, and I hope that will change over time.  

Julian: Yeah. And you know, outside of that what are some of the biggest challenges that The Flip Side faces today?

Annafi: I think it's one of hopelessness. I've talked to so many people that just say, oh, I can't. Oh, the liberals, they've gone crazy. Or, oh, the conservatives, oh no, right. There's this, there's the sense that politics is so broken as to not, it's just unfixable, right? People are, Tired of the polarization, but resigned to it.

It's easier for us to imagine living on Mars than it is to have a function in government, right? That's not good. So I think it's really hard for us to say that, you know, people always say, oh, this sounds like a great idea in theory, but we in America, You could never have this. Right? Yeah.

That's the pushback we're getting, that there are not enough saying people left in the country and we have to push back and say that's not true. In fact, only a quarter of you as adults are even on Twitter and one 10th of them are producing 90% of tweets. Like we're only seeing the extremes on the two sides, and I think showing all of that is really important and making sure we keep saying over and over that actually there is a large audience for this.

Yeah. They're just dis disengaged right now because no social platform has been serving them.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And if everything goes up, what's the long-term vision for The Flip Side?  

Annafi: The long-term vision is that we become, we. It. Think of us as Google News meets Twitter, right? The long-term vision is that The Flip Side is the place people go to learn about the news of the day.

And yeah, hopefully as we think about, you know, curating the publications, uh, work, we will also be generating revenue back for them, right? So think micro payments, but the. , the onerous part won't be on the user, right. There'll be a straight $10 a month subscription to The Flip Side, and we will take care of the revenue generation to the publications.

And also our forum is explicitly designed to optimize. For political conversations. , that means we know we, we ask the users, Hey, doling, left doling right? Because we want to rank posts that are getting helpful votes from both sides. We want to have an badge called ambassador of the week. So if you have racked up the most helpful votes from those on the other side for the next two weeks, your post will get an automatic boost.

designing a neutral platform just means the bad guys win, right? That's how you end up with clickbait, trolling, et cetera. We, we are actively designing for bipartisanship and compromise and thoughtful conversations which is a different set of optimization challenges than again, someone who's building something for a book club or some, someone who's building something for a d and d club, right?

Yeah. And you're really excited to be the place you go to learn about.  

Julian: It's incredible to hear about the design of it as well because, you know, like you said, a neutral place is where the bad guys, when I think we, we've seen that not only with, you know, Twitter and with all these other you know, supposedly neutral, uh, social media platforms or media platforms.

And there's less, uh, it's like hands off the wheel versus kind of, kind of, mm-hmm. being, being on the driver's side or being in the, uh, passenger side. Kinda like a driving test and kind of help, uh, operate the machine. If you will. Uh, I always like to ask this question as a kind of a curve ball, but if you weren't working on The Flip Side, what would you be doing?

Annafi: Oh my gosh. I have been asked, and I, I literally don't know . Um, maybe if, if, If, okay, here's what I will say, I agree very much with like 30% of what Elon Musk says and then disagree very much with 30% of what he says. He's a very confusing man to me. He, there's like two Elon Musks, the rational, sane version and the diet coked up version.

I don't know, . you know, if the SANE Elon. principles are guiding the next stage of Twitter. I might see myself working at Twitter. Yeah.  

Julian: Yeah. It's so funny. Yeah. He's definitely a polarizing figure, but you see that a lot of times with people who have a lot of information, a lot of influence, a lot of power.

And it's interesting though to be um, entertained by their perspectives, uh, on a day to day basis. I always like to ask this question. I know we're coming close to the end of the episode, but I like to ask this question for my audience and also selfishly for myself if it wasn't, or whether it's, uh, early in your career or now, what books or people have influenced you the most?

Annafi: Oh gosh. I read a lot. And like to learn from a lot of people. I just reread Loon shots and that was a really interesting book. Loon Shots, how to Nurture the Crazy Ideas That Win War, cure Diseases, and Transform Industries by Safi Buckle. I'm not sure how to pronou it. Oh yeah. The last name is H C A L L. and it's just a really great book about sort of, yeah, these big shot ideas that people believed in and had to make happen. And also really interesting in terms of how to manage teams that are working on that. Right? Yeah. Was the right level of sort of micromanaging versus just letting things go and letting things happen as we're, you know, so sort of building our team.

That's something I'm struggling with, right? Yeah. To date, my hand has been in everything but now that's impossible, right? Yeah. We. , we we're three full-time people. We're onboarding two part-time contractors. We have editorial interns, like, how do I manage all of this? It's not that I don't trust my team, it's just I'm neurotic person.

Right. . . Yeah. Yeah. I would, I would, uh, suggest loo shots to people working on crazy ideas that pe, that people d don't believe in yet or are skeptical. ,  

Julian: uh, that's incredible. And, And, uh, it's one that nobody's recommended yet. So I'm excited to add that to the list. We do a big blast of it. mm-hmm. and, And I know we're close, and I love to always give our, our guests a chance to give us their plugs. But before I do that, is there anything I didn't ask you  that I should have?  

Annafi:No, this has been a great interview. Thank you so much for having me.  

Julian: Of course, Of course. And last little bit is where can we find The Flip Side?

Where can we find you? Give us your LinkedIns, your Twitters, if you're on there, uh, your website. I've signed up for your newsletter, but let the audience know where we can be a part of The Flip Side and the information that, uh, and, and the technology and everything that's kind of being built. .  

Annafi: Great. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn. Our handle is know The Flip Side, K N O W, The Flip Side. And if you want to sign up for our newsletter, our website is The Flip Side.io. The duh is very important, The Flip Side.io. Thank you so much.  

Julian: Amazing Annafi. I hope you enjoyed yourself and thank you so much for being on the show.

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