Julian: Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have Killian Fjellbakk co-founder of Zario Zario is helping people reduce and replace unwanted screen time using artificial intelligence, psychology, and gamification. Killian, I'm so excited to chat with you and, and get to know you a little bit more as a founder, but also what you're working on at Zario.

One thing I didn't mention before this was, you know, I actually spent some time doing a volunteership for Suicide slash crisis hotline. It was called Crisis Text Line. I'm not sure if you know of it. But we I've been in, in the social workspace kind of helping and I'm always excited about new technologies that are building out kind of, ways that we can kinda help ourselves before things get to a critical point or critical mass.

And before we get into everything you're doing at Zario and your mission and all the technology behind it, what were you doing before you started the company?  

Killian: So before I started the company, I had my other company, which was it was the animation company. So we marketing content, animated videos for, cryptocurrency companies, financial currencies, or even like large companies like Coke.

And before that I was a kind of a consultant in a small company that created something called Learning Expeditions for top executives in Fortune 500 companies.  

Julian: Wow. And so within like, I mean, it, it kind of marries itself, it sounds like, you know, doing the consultancy and also the digital assets that I'm sure you know, are there to attract attention and elicit some emotion.

What got you into, to the the content creation or the animation piece? I mean, you came from a consultancy background. Did you always kind , mess around with animation on the side? Or is it something that was kind of, happen since?  

Killian: So I think it ties into like, I really like creating experiences essentially. I think like life is kind of a series of multiple experiences. So I myself like seek out really crazy experiences all the time. And that's why like I went to study what I studied and after that, During my studies I played in a Chinese moo advertisement, like a 15 minute long Chinese advertisement about like, kind of lifestyle stuff.

They needed like a bad guy. And so they, they were like, Hey, Killian, do you wanna be the bad guy in our Chinese movie? And I was like, yes. And then a few years later, after having worked in that consultancy I hit up my friend that was doing that thing like four years prior. And he, we were just having a lot of beers and having a nice experience.

And then he asked me if I wanted to join him to create a a kind of marketing slash animation company, and I was like, okay, let's do it. It was covid people, you know, were inside and so that's what we did for some time.  

Julian: That's incredible. What ended up happening with that company? Did you end up selling it or did you kind of move on to work on this project? What is your relationship back?  

Killian: Yeah. So, it still kind of exists. We don't really do any projects because I found out that it wasn't exciting to always have to run behind clients. You know, like, yeah, you finish a project, you feel really good, but it's not scalable and you're not really solving any like deep true problem that people have.

It's just about advertising or bringing up a new feature. So for me, it was interesting to, to create. products that could be scaled, that could help a lot more people. Yeah. So ultimately we were like, okay, let's stop chasing all these clients and move on to something else.  

Julian: Yeah. And, And what made you move on to Zario and start building something in the mental health and wellbeing space?

Killian: So it was with my current co-founder, Andre, we had met many years prior, but I knew that like we. Like the way that we work together or like just as friends was very like compatible. We're extremely different people Sure. Like on a very different specter in terms of like how we think and how we do stuff.

And that's ultimately what I was looking for. Someone that was my like opposite basically. It's because I know like for me that helps you kind of think differently, more strategically. And all of those places where I kind of lack experience, he had a lot of experience. And so he called me one day and then it was right after he had a meeting with his boss and the client over Zoom like this.

And after that, his boss was like, Hey, like you can't be on Tinder while you're like having client meetings. This is, and he was, he didn't even realize and. How'd she even know that this was happening? And that's when he realized he had a severe problem, like a severe social media addiction. Yeah.

And he came to me and he is like, Hey, like this is like a crazy problem. Like, let's see if we can find, build a product around this like, kind of growing problem the more and more people are having. And we found that like 130% growth in kind of the app store in terms of wellbeing space. And so it just, Yeah, more and more evident that we had to do something exciting around in that space. So yeah, that's how it started.  

Julian: It's fascinating how you know it, whether regardless of the app, I mean even myself there, there's always certain things I return to based on either my interest or you know, based on my motivation or even mood and feeling. Is there any statistics that you have in terms.

You know, common apps that people will frequent. I think maybe Instagram, TikTok, like those are maybe becoming a little bit more popular nowadays. But is there anything that you see statistically where people re return to and actually spend a majority of their time on?  

Killian: I mean, it the stats are pretty clear. I think it's like, it's, but it's always shifting. That's the thing. , , you I mean, some people spend hundreds and hundreds of pickups because essentially it's not actually what matters is not the amount of time that you spend, but it's actually the number of pickups. Yeah. It's been scientifically shown that like the amount of pickups you have, the more distracted you are because you don't really get into like this deep focus thing.

Yeah. So you just like hop around. And then it becomes kind of like a negative spiral where you start feeling bad. If you overate a lot of like junk food, but for your brain. So, and then you feel worse and then you do it more and you feel worse. But it's not necessarily just one specific app.

We have people like, yeah, see problems with like, they just obsess over news or like, you know, when there was like down cycle in crypto, like some people would like wake up 2, 3, 4, 5. During the night just to check their portfolio to make sure, like, okay, I'm losing money, but like I could sell and like people freaking out.

So it's all sorts of apps essentially. Like we don't wanna be the ones pointing fingers being like, this is bad, this is good. That's up to you and our users to say, so wow. We just know that every month you have like hundreds of thousands of people that are actively looking for a solution. So we just want to be part.

One of those solutions.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. Dang, that's, it's crazy. I I wouldn't have pinned it on pickups, but that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, it's like having a constant distractor right. And kind of always shifting your focus and rather than, you know, be in one situation, you have to set your focus on something else.

What is there any number, how many times a, like the average person picks up their phone or device?  

Killian: It's about, yeah, it's like a little over a hundred times a day. Wow. It depends. And then, and the number of screen time for Gen Z, it's actually over seven hours. Wow. Screen time per day. On, on. And then obviously as you go with the age, it decreases.

But like one of the one, one fact that I found quite. , like mind blowing was like, okay, you are actually five times more likely to have an accident if you're on your phone than if you're drunk if you drink alcohol. Wow. So it's like, everyone's like, okay, don't drink and drive. Don't drink and drive. But not actually being on your phone, but distracted on your phone is like, Even more dangerous.  

Julian: Five times more likely. That's crazy to think about. Now I'm just thinking about all the times that I'm on Spotify trying to change a playlist or something . Wow, that's crazy. And in regards to like mental health and, you know, tracking of all this information, what information do we have at our disposal to be able to understand not only the frequency that we look at our phone?

It's overall impact. Is it a lot of correlational data or is it fairly clear, you know, what it means to pick up your phone and then how that kind of affects you negatively in terms of the down cycle? And what are the, I don't know if there's any scary statistics in terms of the long-term effects of, you know, being kind of in this continuous prep, con continuous practice of picking up your phone, distracting yourself, or having this negative emotion loop. Do you have any thoughts on that?  

Killian: I think it's like, it's a very wide and very subjective thing because everyone reacts differently to different behavior and how they, you know, go about and also like their level of stoicism or stoic. I think what was very interesting was recently you had the leak, like the, they're called like the Facebook papers.

Yeah. That were basically saying that Facebook knew all along. , their platforms were like negatively hurting younger, yeah. Girls actually. So th that's been statistically proven, but I think there's multiple things that also have an effect, right? Like the light in terms of like your sleep quality.

Like if you spend too many hours during the night and it cycles into bad sleep pattern. There is I mean there's a lot of things, but the data or the research is so new that it's hard to really draw any, like, aggregate conclusion on on it.  

Julian: Yeah. That makes sense. regards to, you know, building a mental health application, what are some of the. Barriers to entry in, in working within that space? I'm assuming, you know, it's less barriers than say, you know, building a what is that candy Crush application where you're just constantly, you know, playing an arcade game.

What are some of the, you know, barriers like, I, like I mentioned, that you have to kind of consider or actually go through to, to have a legitimate application that is for mental health? For health and well, , is there any certificate? Is there any loop or is there any red tape that you have to go through?

What was that process like? Building an app and then launching it and have people using it? .  

Killian: So I would say like a mental health, it depends kind of how you categorize yourself, but I would say it's like way harder than something like Candy Crush, but like less than, for instance, a bank, because people care a lot about their data, right?

So for us, it's very important that our data is fully secure, fully privatized, and you see. , like the level of interest into the privacy regulations and the privacy storage of personal data that, that we do in certain countries, they care a lot less than in other countries. And it's really fascinating to see because we actually see who goes in and sees and reads our different private privacy policy.

But because we are in Europe and because like Switzerland is even more advanced than most of the other countries, like we need. , make sure that's like always our first and highest, most priority. Right? Yeah. So I would say data or maybe patience. Yeah. Privacy is like ultimately the place where I think anyone should be extremely careful and take the utmost precautions that they can because it could have bigger implications further down the line that we don't, maybe don't have the technology or things to be able to see right now. And that's what puts a lot of fear into people, right? Things like, yeah, when you watch like Black Mirror and oh, okay, like you'll be able to trace back everything.

Like yeah, you have all these like social credit score systems. So I think ultimately that's. very sensitive data and yeah, some people are more aware of it now than others, but I think it's gonna become more and more important and highlighted and people Yeah. To be able to protect their privacy and data properly.

Julian: Yeah. How do you kind of juggle what is necessary data to, you know, extract kind of, I guess, research information from, versus what data is maybe, you know, you don't feel comfortable touching. Cause I feel like you. A lot of the Facebook implications were that they knew this information, but it's how, it's like the negligence in acting or doing something positive with the information.

But then on the flip side, you know, having too much information and building too many things around, it maybe reinforces behavior or anything like that. How do you kind of manage the balance on what information I can use? What can I build off of that information and how does that information overall affect my age?

Killian: So I think Apple is actually really, I'm a huge fan of Apple. I even have the vintage you know  

Julian: Oh, nice. Yeah. Big difference  

Killian: From Steve Jobs. But what they're doing really good is actually making sure that all the data that you collect or that they collect isn't actually, it's completely anonymized.

So in that sense, it's. It's good, but it's also a little bit bad because we need to say like when you download, for instance, AO now, even though it's like far from the full fledged application that we want it to be, you need to agree to certain conditions that aren't even true. It says things like that.

We're capturing data that we're not even doing that. We're just we have to tell our users that we are doing it even though we're not doing it. So there's like a lot Redundant information or acceptance. So I think with the newest regulations that they've had after the iOS 12 or 13, the Yeah.

When they started having this opt-in thing that basically like made it a big problem for Facebook. It also had some negative consequences for other app builders. . I think capturing too much data is really hard. What's like, we're far, I think like you can get a lot of information, but what's really important is to anonymize it so that it doesn't like link back specifically to one person.

So no one in Zario anywhere else could potentially go in and be like, oh, this, I can identify this user. So ultimately it's all encrypted. , you know, other platforms already before we even touch it. We just need to make sure that we give it back to the user in a way that they can understand it and that they can use it for their own benefit and learn from it, and then change their behavior.

Julian: Yeah, that makes sense. What has it been like, how, what has been the process of transitioning into kind of a full, you know, co-founder, co-founder relationship? I know you were. , you know, more on, on our service company. And now you're kind of diving, you know, what's the what's the thing that they say?

It's like, you know, some people go a mile wide, an inch deep, and then others can go, you know, an inch wide and a mile deep. And it sounds like you're doing the ladder now and really diving into a deep problem and working on solutions. What's been that transition? Like, what are some things that you've learned about your own skillset and challenges that you've faced and how that, you know, how have you improved kind of through this?

Killian: Yeah. I like this question a lot. I see it also this like, like, like a, well, like you can have the same amount of water in a really deep, narrow Well, yeah. Or in a very shallow lake. Yeah. And for me, I think I was a very shallow lake before, and what I've had to do is to really like, dig super deep into like very specific tools.

It become extremely technical because ultimately it all lies in. and my co-founder's hands is like, okay, what is the output? So like, the speed at which you can learn, I think is ultimately what's gonna keep you a flaw because you can't rely on other people all the time. Or we've been, you know, we don't have a technical co-founder.

So now I'm had to teach myself a lot of the different codes or even using certain no code platforms or how to set up different API calls with yeah, fire base. All of these kind of technical things that I didn't have any clue of was something that I really needed to, and still need to yeah, teach myself ultimately something like the speed I wish you could learn.

I think that's really important and it's something that, Cherish and taking more and more into account. So right now I'm like teaching myself like three, four different tools at the same time because I know that's gonna get me closer to the, to my end goal of being able to change something in the application in like less than an hour.

I just wanted to be able to, to rapidly iterate and prototype so that we can. Have better product market fit and reach more people and create more values for others. So,

Julian: yeah. Yeah it's awesome to see and echoing a lot of other things, other founders and their other experiences, which is just a necessity to learn quickly and learn anything that's, you know, absolutely necessary for the product to move forward.

And you only have what you have in front of you, the tools that you have at your disposal. So, you know, oftentimes you don't have the luxury to necessarily grab at other resources. So incredible to see how not only gritty but you know, adaptable. I mean, there's so many words you can use to kind of identify the founder and the archetype that, that comes with it.

Shifting focus on Srio, what, where's the app now? How many people are using it? What's been the continuous growth kind of month over month? And then what are you excited about in the near future?  

Killian: So we've been extremely like product focused. So we haven't done any like marketing, so to speak. Like the only thing that we did was product Hunt.

Like when we first launched the product, we went on Product Hunt was a great success. We became like number one app of the day and number five of the week. So that was like the first start. But after that, like we were like, okay, we have some kind of like valid product. And so that kind of grew us organically to where we're now, but essentially what we've been working on constantly is just testing and testing new and new features.

Yeah. Without implementing them into the app. So what we're, what we, the latest feature that we have tested now for Android, which is actually our biggest market is something that we call the circuit breaker. . we're using a kind. New API tools that, that where you can set up, because like I mentioned before, the number of pickups is actually more a factor that shows if you have a problem or not. So what we're doing now, we have a. A feature that then opens and goes above your other application and then asks you if you, like, consciously want to open the app and then tells you how many times you open the app. And then, you know, we gamify that so that if you go above your own goal, then you break it and things like this.

So that's what I'm ultimately really excited for. Yeah. So that's on the agenda. Yeah. Then we're gonna be tackling it for iOS after. Yeah, with their brand new screen time api. So that's gonna be excited a lot. We've been waiting for that one.

Julian: That's incredible to think about. You know, the mechanics and the psychology behind, you know, it's like giving people the information and allowing them the choice versus, you know, like I mentioned earlier, the limitations that we can that I think a lot of companies fall short on. Limiting the user or creating it in a way that's more education focused, but not necessarily action based.

It's not necessarily an action requirement. How do you kind of work through the process of gamifying the different activities we have? Do you kind of go through, you know, do you get user feedback and go through a journey with them, or are, do you have to kind of have already an idea that you want to push out in terms.

You know, the behaviors that you can track and then the response that the app will have, you know, based on that behavior what's your process in regards to building?  

Killian: So ultimately, I think a lot of the really interesting features already exist in different shapes and forms. Interesting. Earlier this year in March I went to see a talk by sever hacker.

He's one of the co-founders. Dual lingo. Dual lingo is a, a big inspiration for us because what they do is language learning, which is very, you know, good. And also they gamified and he was asked what would be kind of the new frontier? Where could gamification h like really benefit? And he said like, health and mental health applications.

Yeah. And so for us is to, our goal now will be to implement some of the features that you see, for instance, in dual lingo, but also in, in other, Where, for instance, like a buddy system works really well. We've done tests with collaborative challenges. Essentially, you team up with one other person or maybe four other people, sometimes strangers, and then you're dependent on each other to kind of get the points and get the goals.

And that, that creates a lot of accountability, which people really seem to like. So we had like 90% retention rates. 10 days of the test trials. So you can imagine it as being like, like a mix between like Alcoholics Anonymous, a football team and an escape game, into one kind of virtual setting.

So that's what we're gonna be implementing in soon, and I'm. Stoked to see that because we've done a lot of tests on it. So yeah.  

Julian: I love, that's such an interesting way to describe you know, what you're building and I'm excited to to see myself I'm downloading the app and going to play around with it.

I always like to make a point to, to do so. But you know, kind of shifting focus here, what are some of the biggest challenges that Zario faces today?  

Killian: Tech, honestly. Yeah. That's why I know that a lot of your audiences are developers. So if we have any React native developers listening to this, please hit me.

Send me an email, something. Cause we, we've had a lot of struggles finding people Yeah. That that, that have a lot of experience and that can do things that haven't, hasn't been done before. That's really what we're looking for, because, there's very little documentation on certain things that we're working on.

, and having the people with the right skill at the right time. Yeah. Not necessarily at the right place. We don't really care where people are. Right. That's the beauty of being, being virtual, but also the right mindset. You know, we need someone that is you know, curious and like, like I said before, like learn it all.

Can attitude. Attitude rather than know it all. Yeah. And that's that's really key. Like we've had difficulties with developers that are like, oh, no. That's not possible. And then we found out that it was possible later, and then it's just like, oh no. But actually I just didn't want to do that.

So, what? ,  

Julian: it's so funny, a lot of challenge and a lot of founders talk about the challenge of hiring and retaining and also just finding the person that kind of meshes well with the, either the philosophy, the values, but overall the focus of the company as well. And the motivation behind.

What are some things that you've learned kind of through the hiring process in terms of, you know, finding the right person and identifying the qualities that will be successful or are you still in the learning process?  

Killian: I think it's a continuous learning process, but we've seen a very different outcome from very different people.

And it's like, and it also is very related to us, like, how much can we. , you know, motivate people. How much can we, like, hold the hands of a lot of people? But a lot of the time it's almost impossible because we don't always have the answers. We don't really know. Yeah. So we've hired a lot of interns for instance, and for them, obviously they require a lot more handholding.

But then in other cases we've had people that, you know, knew more than us and were able to help us like extensively. So I think it's like a continuous learning process. Yeah. And it will probably continue, like continuously evolve. Yeah. Forever. But I think having, like as we are growing into more and more people having more kind of documentation and also like meeting up like face to face, I think also changes the relationship that you have. Yeah. With people, they see you more as like another person and you know. Sure. I think that's quite important as well, like finding ways. interact outside of work, I think yeah. Changes the dynamic and the culture of it. Yeah.  

Julian: Yeah. A A lot of the founders say that it's like, it creates a cohesion behind, you know, the relationship, which is, you know, necessary.

Especially when you need to move fast and you need to break things and you need to be almost fearless, you know, in whatever you're building. Yeah the, I feel like a lot of people get into you know, overthinking if it's the right or wrong thing versus just moving it forward. I guess, you know, long term wise, if everything goes well, what's the long term vision for Zario?

Killian: I think it it's really gonna be about gamifying life, essentially figuring out a way to earn points. and do stuff in just everyday life, you know? Yeah. Like I invented a game with my family when we were on vacation once called the Points Game, and it was all about coming up with several different, like, social challenges.

It could be like, Hey, like talk to the stranger or do this thing . And I would love to create, make, sorry, become in a way that. feel an external in addition to your like inner drive or your inner motivation or intrinsic motivation that you have, like an extrinsic factor that brings in ways that you want to evolve.

So basically a self-help app that gives you point for doing things in real life. That's ultimately where we want it.  

Julian: it's in, that's an incredible kind of drive and mission, especially in how it could benefit people who maybe have some kind of intrinsic, you know, motivation or you know, inclination to wanna do something, but maybe don't feel necessarily the po the support.

It's like, you know, the negative potential of things not going the way that they hope to overpowers their, you know, even motivation to move forward. So it's like it's adding a little extra to. It's super cool. I would hate to play that with my family because I feel like you'd get outta hand, but it sounds like it, it was a fun experience for you.

You know, I always like to ask this question to founders who are, you know, currently in, in the mix of building and kind of iterating and learning. What's the hardest part of your job?

Killian: Focus. Focus. Yeah. . Yeah. A hundred percent focus. I think like I've also in, in later years realized that I might have some tendency of like ADHD or something like shifting focus a lot. Yeah. So like doing everything I can, like, not just while I'm here at my desk, but like also like cutting down on beer. Drinking with my friends, like making sure that I do enough exercise and like yeah. Exercise and sleep so that like my performance and endurance at work. Yeah. Is as high as I can get. I think like that. That's really. in a challenge and something that I realized more and more is just like being able to focus, like just doing like one thing at a time and like sitting at it for a long time instead of just like all next thing or like email or like shifting tabs all the time and you end up not doing anything and everything at the same time. And so like just sitting and. doing something from start till end, I think.  

Julian: Yeah. It's tough. It's tough, especially as a founder who, you know, managing a lot of different, you know, aspects of the business to go from, you know, beginning to end in completion. It's hard. Yeah. It's it's a challenge that, that a lot of founders say, you know, have, do you have any, do you have any tricks or tips that you use?

Killian: Tremendous amount of stuff. I, like, I. I used to have it so bad that I would like even tape like my wife will make fun of me, but I used to like tape like these. Blinders side, shed like blinders like a horse because I could, like, if I have other things around me, so I would like turn off the lights.

But in all seriousness, I think like, what helps me a lot is timeboxing. So like in my calendar I set off specific times when I wanna do also like up early. I used to like hate waking up early. I think I'm more of like a night owl, but like I feel waking up early makes me. Pump, like makes me feel excited.

Yeah. And obviously like working out huge endorphin boost. Yeah. And then obviously there's what you eat. So for me, like eating a lot of carbohydrates like. slows me down a lot. Yeah. Like, I feel like bloated and full and like my mind as well. So like, cutting down the carbs helps tremendously. Yeah. And then, yeah, making sure I get all the vitamins I have, like all these fish oils and multivitamins.

Yeah. And I groom my own like, lions man mushroom, which also helps a lot for like cognitive function. So there's a lot you can do, but I'm sure. What's his name? Andrew Huberman probably has a lot more to say than I do .  

Julian: I love the different it's funny because a lot of founders, you know, I'll ask that question and in terms of what they use in tactics and you know, it it's like almost another job to keep yourself, you know, energetic enough to actually tackle, you know, every task you need to do the building process and also say mentally healthy and you know, not reinforcing any negative.

It's like a constant, you know, cycle. I feel like it's a little, it's like I said, it's another job that you have to incorporate into the other tasks that you're doing, but done well. I'm sure you've seen such positive benefits from that. You know, I know we're close to the end of the show here, and I definitely want to ask this next question, not only for my audience, but for selfish research purposes.

Whether it was early in your career or now, what books or people have influenced you the most? .  

Killian: Whoa. Okay. Should I go with people or books? So my grandma, she influenced me a lot. She's yeah, highly intelligent, very successful. Also a little bit crazy , so she like kind of tilted over the bit, but she used to be kind of like an ambassador and diplomat for Norway traveling around the world.

Wow. She written many. I'm actually translating one of her books to English, so I'll be publishing it on on Amazon. She has the same last name as me, so you can go away. . Love it. Yeah. Books. So many books. Right now I'm reading Shoe Dog. It's really good. Never heard that. Yeah. What was that about?

Shoe Dog is the Nike story about the founder of Nike. How he found it. How he did Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Very strong one. I think. Obviously you have all those typical founder bug zero zero to one from Peter Teal. Yeah, classic . But outside of those classic, I mean, I have, so I should have done this interview at home cause I a whole bookshelf with all of all my favorite books in terms of non-fiction.

My favorite book is called Shunta Ram. It's about. Australian convict that flees to India, to Mumbai, and they just released actually a apple TV series about it. So I just switched out like a few weeks ago. Really cool.  

Julian: Oh man. I'll have to check that out. , well ask Killian. Thank you so much for answering all the questions.

I know we're at time here, but I'm so excited to see, you know, obviously I'll be playing with Zario and submit any unsolicited feedback to you if I have any. But I'm excited. Absolutely. You know, dive into the app. And I'm overall excited about the mental health space and how, you know, we're not extracting away technology, but it allowing ourselves to behave with technology in a way that's positive.

So, really excited to, to have you on the show. And last little bit is where can we find it? Where can we be a part of that app? Always like to give my guests a second to give us your plugs. What are your LinkedIns, what are your Twitters, what are your, where can we download the app and you know, start being a fan in the user of the application?

Killian: So you go to meetzario.com and there you can go to the app. I also really recommend to check out the digital wellbeing test. Yeah. We developed a test with some psychologists where you can do, it's 13 questions and it tells you if you're kind of in the red zone or yellow on the green zone. For me personally, you can go on my LinkedIn.

I'm kind of active on LinkedIn. It's the only. That's Killian Fjellbakk. And if you wanna check out my bucket list of things that I wanna do before I die, you can call on KillianFjellbakk.com .  

Julian: I love that. I'll have to check that out and see if there's anything I can help check off. But amazing Killian it's been so, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you and we'll walk you through your journey, but also the app and what you're building.

And always excited to, to see where it goes. But I hope you enjoyed yourself and thank you again for being onthe show.  

Killian: Thank you so much, Julian. It's been a big pleasure.

Julian: Awesome.