December 21, 2022

Episode 142: Danny Nathan, CEO of Apollo 21

Danny Nathan is the consummate "square peg." Throughout his career, he's been called a product person, a UX guy, a designer, a strategist, and a marketer (and a few other choice names like "The Cleaner"). And with over 18 years of experience in product, design, and technology, most of those are spot-on.

Today, Danny leads the team at Apollo 21 — an entrepreneurially-minded crew focused on building products, services, and companies. Apollo 21 sits somewhere between software consultancy and venture studio. The team works with clients ranging from small startups who are building their first product to multi-billion dollar corporations looking to generate operational efficiency through the creation of bespoke technology.

Julian: Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have Danny Nathan, CEO at Apollo 21. Apollo 21 is an entrepreneurial collective focus on exploring new ideas and building new ventures. Danny, I'm so excited to chat with you and learn more about what you're building and the ideas that you're seeing in the world.

As we were chatting before, you know, before the show I'm really excited about kind of the whole development process, but. I think the idea phase and the iteration of ideas, I think is always so, illuminating for a lot of founders on how to either view something within philosophically or even strategically.

But before we get into all that good stuff you mentioned I think Apollo 21 was developed and built during the pandemic. What opportunities did you see during the pandemic that led you to start the company?  

Danny: Well, first off, thanks for having me. I appreciate you're taking the time and you're sending me invite. We did start out during the pandemic. We launched in April of 2021 and it was largely opportunistic. I was previously had a product for another small startup here in LA called SEER that was focused on video technology. But while I was there, I spent about the last year of my tenure helping other portfolio companies through our primary investment company and.

That sort of got me noticed amongst the folks at the investment company. And to make a long story short, they had a number of other projects floating around and just throughout the network there were a few folks here and there who had been asking if. Either myself or other folks that I knew somebody who could help them bring product services companies to life.

And so, we just sort of hit a point where all of a sudden it made sense and there were enough opportunities floating around to to kind of take a run at it. And so I left Sears, started Apollo 21 and year and. A half or so later, we're still kicking .

Julian: I love that. And so fascinating. You, the one thing that really stuck with me about that was a lot of founders will say the same thing, where it's like at some point it made sense to move into this direction.

And I love that because I think that echoes to a lot of founders of. Experience when they're exploring new ideas and exploring just new avenues and where they can use their skills. What in particular about, you know, building, you know, whether it was products or startups, kind of fascinated you.

What about the process? Was there anything in particular you liked? Or was it the diversity of things you could do? What inspired you to start 8 21 and really go full into building out different products  

Danny: i, The idea of building products and services and helping bring companies to life has been sort of a through line throughout my career.

I started in advertising years ago and very quickly realized that the most fun you'll ever have in advertising is in school. And so I I founded an opportunity to leave that and ended up at a small innovation company where I really cut my teeth. Thinking about what it means to bring a product to life, what it means to think about how to service consumer needs and balance those with business needs.

. And I've just sort of been pursuing that since, so that's been the last, God, I don't know, 15 plus years of my career. Yeah. I've been focused on product development and kind of helping other folks. Create startups, helping larger companies launch new services or build services internally, for example, to help with operational efficiency, things of that sort.

And so, For me, it's would be about the problem solving and it's about the kind of freshness that every new client brings to the table. Yeah. There's no, no problem is the same as the one that you've tackled prior to it. And you know, often you get asked what industry or vertical are you most interested in?

Or whatever. And for me the answer has always been, I'm kind of agnostic to what industry is. I'm more excited about solving the problem. And so, you know, if you come to me and tell me, You're interested in creating the world's best nuke trash bags, and you're passionate about trash bags, and you can get me excited about trash bags, for example.

I can readily tell you that I've never at once in my career thought about how I could go about making trash bags a better product. But if it comes to light in the right way, you know, there's always opportunities to take a problem and tackle it. And yeah, new, interesting, unique perspectives to bring to the table around new products.

And so, If that's trash bags, that's great. If that's you know, consumer applications or applications for operational efficiency, whatever it is at some point in my career, I've probably touched it.  

Julian: Yeah. What kind of strategies or I guess, what do you look at when you think about taking a product to life?

I mean, we think about the user journey. We think about, you know, the total adjustable market and how to even tackle that. Some strategies that we might do for go-to-market, but it all kind of relies on a well built product that users can tangibly interact with. And what, yeah, what do you consider when bringing products to life that that.

does it and does it change by the different product you're building, or is it kind of regimented at this point?  

Danny: Yes and no. I mean, every product is different and the consideration set for every product is different. But the thing that never seems to change is figuring out what the consumer need is and balancing that with a business opportunity.

Yeah, and the two in my mind have to work hand in hand. If you can't bring something to market that I use consumers loosely, but that people want whether that's internal stakeholders who you're building for, or a direct to consumer market, whatever it is, you know, you have to solve a problem and bring something to them that offers value and utility to them.

But at the same time, You can't just give it away and expect to, you know, create a viable business asset. And so, you know, there's always the unspoken rule of starting a company or building a product that is, well, you know, we've gotta make money on it. And yes, you do. And ultimately that is the end goal of what makes a company or a business, a company or a business.

. But at the same time, you know, you have to start from the perspective. Can we build something that we can bring to market that adds value, and can we do so in a manner that then has a viable business behind it so that we can continue to bring interesting things for that audience or new audiences to market.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And coming from a product background, what advantages do you have that, that you feel can help expedite this process bringing products to life, but also, you know, creating them in a sufficient way that allows them to take on the advantage of business opportunity? Cuz I think a lot of founders think about building, think about all these features, but without that background or experience, it's hard to know what to.

Danny: Yeah, I mean, I think you've hit the nail in the head and it really does come down to experience. You know, I've been doing this for God longer than I want to admit, probably about 20 years now, . And yeah, that makes me feel old. You know, the reality is that you start off in your career learning about specific aspects of how to bring a product to life.

And that might be designed, that might be marketing, that might be project management, something like that. But over time you know, often you have the opportunity to start to branch out and start to understand a larger breadth of what that system looks like and you know, that experience set and being able to know that you've done it before and you've seen where things can fail, where things can go right, and what works and what doesn't just gives you that much more confidence and that much more background to lean on.

Yeah. When you start building something new so that you understand what are the repeatable things that you want to look for. What are the points of validation that you need to understand, you know, identifying the risks and the challenges and you know, the opportunities behind a new idea? Yeah.

In my mind really does stem or at least benefit from years of experience? And it's not a question of somebody new not being able to do so, pardon me. It's more of an issue of how quickly you can get there and, you know, as we all. For better or worse speed plays a role in this world. And yeah, you know, we talk a lot about speed to market and first mover advantage and all of that, which you can argue either side of and is kind of beside the point that I'm trying to make here.

But you know, really the ability to get to a decision making point quickly and to understand what it is you're pursuing and where those business opportunities are I think is where experience comes into play. And, you know, I'm lucky in that I have surrounded myself with a team at Apollo 21. One who I've worked with for a number of years.

I know all of the guys that I work. Quite well now. And so, we know how to work together. We know what each other's strengths and weaknesses are, and we're able to check our egos at the door. And, you know, when my head of engineering, for example, tells me that I'm an idiot because I don't understand something or because I'm proposing something that's impossible, which I love to do, you know, I, I can hear that from him without taking it personally.

And, you know, I can articulate an idea to my head of product and design, for example, and. Have some sensibility that he will pick up quickly on what it is I'm describing, even if I'm not doing so with the the most clarity and know that for, you know, 80 to 90% of the thought process, we'll be on the same page and yeah, we can kind of course correct as we go.

Julian: Yeah. When you think about or for those who are considering building and or are currently building and you think about the tools that you use, I think it's always fascinating for me at least. What tools are you using to design and also what technologies are you looking or are you seeing that people are building?

We think about like, you know, react native for mobile applications. If you want to be able to go on both iOS and Android. We think about sure. You know, all these other tools. Even like no code platforms and things like that. But I know this is a kind of offshoot question, but tech, from a technical lens, what are you using on a product size to kind of develop the ideas and then what do, what technology are you seeing?

Danny: Implement. . Sure. The reality is we tend to be somewhat technology agnostic. I mean, we have kind of a core stack that we lean on when we need to move quickly, because we know that's. What we understand, but we pride ourselves on viewing technology as a tool and not as the outcome. And so, you know, if a business need or a business solution is what you're aiming for, to your point, sometimes a no code example is the easiest way to, to get rolling.

And yeah. You know, starting with something simple that, you know, you can build quickly and get out the door, even if it's only a couple of the features that you have in mind, obviously allows you to get to market quicker. And you know, the fact of the matter. Learning from a real consumer audience just simply can't be replaced by anything else.

And so, honestly, one of my favorite tools is the design sprint or some sort of kind of discovery process upfront that allows us to get to that point of consumer input and audience validation as quickly as possible. And I love baking that in before we start thinking about technology at all. I mean, yeah, you know, if you wanna talk about the tools that we're using, sure.

Often those will come to life as a Figma prototype or a keynote prototype, but even that just kind of depends. What the team is that you're involved with, what their skillset is and what they are most able to bring to market or bring to bear quickly so that you can get into that testing and the value that you see out of that quick turnaround for feedback to me just has so much value to it because you get there in a couple of weeks.

At most. You don't have to focus on. Wasting time, frankly, building technology to get to the point of discovery or validation. Rather, you can just sort of wave your hands a little bit and suddenly learn from people that they like what you're talking about or they don't like what you're talking about.

Yeah. Or you know, it's not hard to get somebody talking and. Hear from them, oh, this is great, but, and immediately within a couple of weeks, and for a very low cost as compared to actually going and trying to build a POC or a prototype of something, you got answers to questions that you probably didn't even know you needed to ask.

Yeah. Just because you sat down and started talking to people. ,  

Julian: yeah. Describe the relationship A 21 has with these clients. I'm excited to, to learn more about how that process is how you kind of look through and evaluate ideas. Do you have a lot of them come through a day? If you have any stats, that would be wonderful.

But describe, not only from the idea standpoint, how do you evaluate an idea from being, I would say quote unquote good or I guess viable or solving a problem versus someone that's not, and then what does the relationship go from there?  

Danny: Yeah. You know, our clients are split kind of 50 50 between more corporate oriented entities with whom you know, we partner to build often internal technology.

So, I've referenced operational efficiency a couple of times in our conversation here, and I, I do so because one of our clients, for example, is a financial services company that came to us, not because they wanted to. The next QuickBooks or whatever. But because you know, they were handling everything internally via email, and they basically came to us and said, help, we're drowning an email, but we're not a technology company.

We don't know how to fix that. And so, you know, we begin at the beginning and we go through a discovery process to where you know, we learn about their business and what the operational efficiency needs are, where those are falling apart. And we work with them hand in hand to design the software that will help.

drive the flow of information and the flow of tasks through the kind of machine or the Rube Goldberg mechanism that is, you know, their internal process . And you know, it just, it varies for every client. We have another corporate client for whom we just finished building a consumer facing application.

And then on the other side, you know, we tend to partner with small startups, companies, founders who are just getting started. Often they'll come to us and sort of say, Hey, we have this idea, but we don't really. How to get from idea to thing out in the world, or even how to prove that thing should exist.

And so, again, that's where that design sprint process comes into play. And we start early by helping them articulate what the feature set is that they think is necessary, validating whether or not that feature set is right or not by testing it with real world users who at least at face value begin to fit their audience kind of demographic or rubric.

You know, often we'll go through a couple of iterations there to help them get from idea on napkin to a clear-cut set of requirements that we can then go and build or they can take somewhere else if they would prefer to go build. Although obviously, you know, we prefer to keep those partnerships going and often we do.

You know, we have a couple of clients who brought us an idea of that sort and who we have now created first iterations of applications for so, We have partnered with a founder who is creating a platform for authors that is designed to help them self-publish faster and bring their audience closer and actually involve their audience in like commenting on the platform itself around the content.

And to the point where we've even talked about, you know, second editions, for example, involving people who have participated in and commented on the first edition. So that, , the process of publishing becomes almost an iterative kind of product in and of itself. Where, you know, the first iteration of your book was the author's thoughts, for example, and the second iteration is the author's thoughts, plus the audience's feedback and how the author reacts to that.

So yeah, lots of interesting opportunities there. You know, and we'd love working with early stage founders because that, that zero to one space I think is where our team really shines and where we have the opportunity to. Kind of combine our interest in our need for helping define and solve business needs and business solutions with the technology that is able to be built to bring that to life.

Yeah, we're doing the same thing for another company that is trying to streamline music licensing for on demand content, which sounds straightforward, but is actually an incredibly difficult thing to solve for. Perhaps you have some experience there, but you know, when you go to sync music to video, all of a.

The conversation about licensing changes and it becomes immensely difficult because yeah, there's lots of different people that have to be satisfied. Yeah. And so every challenge is different and we love digging in and you know, often that that takes the shape of us then you know, taking the stake or putting skin in the game alongside our partners and helping them get off the ground, which is interesting for us because it keeps things exciting and it it helps establish kind of a future view for us and.

You know, helps us function, I think more in terms of what my kind of future vision is for a 21, which is something more akin to a venture studio or a hybrid of a venture studio and, you know, the consultancy that, that we tend to lean towards today. And so, you know, those opportunities are things that we're always looking for and always thinking about how we can support our partners, how we can help them bring things to life.

By taking on some sense of ownership, it keeps us thoroughly invested. It makes sure that our team feels the weight in the same way that a, you know, that a founder might in terms of the importance of what we're building. And especially at an early stage where every little feature and every little thing that you do is such a make it or break at moment. We take that very serious.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And you don't have to get into too many specifics, but how do you partner with the early founders? Are you taking kind of like a rev share or are you doing like what an accelerator does where they take equity portion of the company? Is it service based?  

Danny: It just depends on what the opportunity there is and what the partner has appetite for.

To be honest, we are, we're pretty open and flexible or at least willing to talk about or entertain any and all of the above because as I said, we. Feeling like we're participating. So, it really gets evaluated on a case by case basis and we figure that out alongside the founder in term, you know, by looking at what works for them, what works for us, and what will help that relationship grow in the future.

Julian: Yeah. Well, and in regards to the current, I guess, structure of a lot of companies it seems like a lot of companies are becoming, I don't know if fragmented is the right word, but it's almost like specialized, like departments are almost specialized in services companies. Are becoming more at the forefront to accomplish, whether it's, you know, an MVP product or take on, you know, traditionally it's like advertising.

You might go with an agency or someone PR if you're trying to get involved. Is that a function of just the remote working culture increasing and founders just having to be more more or less just creative with finding the right solutions? Or is it something else?  

Danny: I think it's less about, you know, remote culture and the change over the last couple years and more about kind of the funding landscape and the difficulty that founders have getting the funding that they need go after, you know, what you might think of as a more robust build.

And so, sure. You know, because financial institutions, VCs, et cetera, are less inclined to fund pre. You know, pre-product market fit or without some demonstration that you're on the right track. It almost forces founders into a world where they have to be scrappy about coming up with enough of a product to demonstrate to those funding opportunities that there is something to their business and that they have an actual business.

And, you know, there's years of examples of companies that have been built on the backs of of VC funding and that have operated a loss for. Even to the point of exit. And I think the appetite for that is changing right now. And we're seeing both from founders and from funders that the idea of hopping on the VC treadmill and knowing that you are going to be signing up for a growth at all costs kind of mentality doesn't sit well, you know, in this market.

And so I think a lot of folks are turning to. Companies like US services businesses where who can help them get something small off the ground and prove the value either because they have to in order to go and get the funding or because they have an appetite to potentially try and bootstrap something and live in a world where, you know, they're not beholden to a board, for example.

And you know, when you look at an exit like like MailChimp had recently where the founders owned a hundred percent of the company, all of a sudden you kind of look around and go, oh wait. It's great to hear about billion dollar unicorn exits, but when the two guys who started the company are talking about that kind of exit as opposed to how much is getting funneled out to a vc right?

And you know, you're looking at a world where founders and entrepreneurs are walking away with five to 10% of their company and , look, five to 10% of a billion dollars is an amazing windfall. But at the same time, if you don't have to do that, or if you can walk into a funding conversation, with revenue in your pocket, for example.

It puts you in such, yeah, a strong negotiating position that in my opinion, you just can't overlook that opportunity. And so, you know, when you look at partnering with somebody like Apollo 21, we have experience in that oppor in the entrepreneurial area and can help people who perhaps don't have that experience or who are bringing some other skillset to the table, navigate those waters.

We can help articulate things like investor decks or strategic decks, things like that. Yeah. But more importantly, we can help them get from zero to one or even zero to revenue without having to go and raise millions of dollars and feel like they're indebted to a board or a group of other people. for better or worse or in it for the money.  

Julian: Right, right. Tell us a little bit about the traction and what's been exciting about, not only maybe this year at Apollo 21, but maybe in the near future. Who are you working with? If you can say any names or or an equivalence you know, what's the growth look like and what's exciting about kind of the next chapter for Apollo 21?

Danny: Yeah, that's a great question. . I mean, if I look back. What it's taken to get Apollo 21 off the ground. 2021 was utterly painful as it is for many founders and entrepreneurs. You know, we closed the year with well under a half a million dollars in revenue. You know, I went for a year without taking a paycheck or anything just to kind of, to make ends meet.

And I was prepared for it, but I was in no way prepared for. What it meant and what the impact would be. And then we sort of turned things around or turned a corner, I guess, right at the beginning of 2021 or 2022, excuse me. And signed a couple of sizable contracts that that really set the tone for the rest of the year, one of which has turned into far and away our largest client and who we have spent the year working very closely with building out.

I don't know if I could say the entirety, but a huge portion of their technology infrastructure, helping them get everything from their data warehouse and data structure and insights engine put together. All the way up to building, as I mentioned, a consumer facing application that just launched recently.

All for, you know, a space that I never in a million years would've expected to build technology for. They're focused on the Western space, so think cowboys and rodeos and wow, things of that sort. Technology is traditionally, not as far ahead as where it is in some other places that, that you look at in the market.

And so it's been really exciting to start working with them and to dig into a market that has such a greenfield opportunity and is so ripe for the addition of technology into how they do things, both in terms of engaging fans and even operating as a business. And then, you know, as I look forward we are, we're finally kind of taking the opportunity not only to partner with some smaller companies and founders to bring their ideas to life, but we're also in the process of bringing one of our first products to life that will be wholly owned by Apollo 21.

And I am thoroughly excited about seeing kind of where that goes and being able to put a feather in our cap that is just kind of proofing the pudding around the mentality that I started the company with, which, Somewhere between consultancy, technology company and Venture Studio. And it feels really good to be able to look forward and feel like we're making progress towards that eventuality in that.

Maybe it's more than just a pipe dream.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. For other founders out there, what advice would you give someone going through, you know, that 2021 period that you were talking about? Really taking, understanding the level of commitment that you have to do. They have to. Commit to when you're building a startup, but also you know, fighting with that and the reality of what that commitment means kind of in your day-to-day life.

What helped you get through it? What maybe strategies or things that you, can you advise other founders that were helpful for you?  

Danny: start off by building a small team who you know and trust. Put people around you who share in your vision and who will. Sharon, the don't give upness that is required to to kind of make it happen.

I'm lucky in that I have a head of engineering who I have worked with in the past. And I knew that I got along with really well, but he signed on out of the gate and every single step of the way has been sitting right next to me saying, I'm in this for the long haul. Let's do what we need to do.

And just having. Having his support and having somebody who understands what you're going through to kind of bounce ideas off of, yeah. And to share in both the celebrations and the the miseries, I think is immensely helpful. And then beyond that, you know, find other people who can help, whether they're advisors or business partners or whoever it is you know, find people who you can lean on to ask the questions.

I mean, I thought that I knew what it took to start a company. And to be frank, this is not the first company that I've started, but it's the first company that has gotten to a point where I needed to worry about employees. And, you know, just dealing with all of the realities of what it takes to stand up a corporate entity and to understand and navigate all of the issues around legalities and taxes and all of that.

You know, you would think that with all of the materials that exist in the world for entrepreneurs and founders, and for the number of blog posts and articles and whatever you can think of out there that are, you know, here are the 10 things that you need to know, and here's the toolkit that you need to start your business.

None of them seem to cover. everything. Yes. And none of them will cover all of the things that you specifically need, . So, you know, it's amazing to me that there isn't a checklist of, oh, you have a company that's established in Delaware. Here's the 17 things that you need to do every year, and the date on which they're do, like, why does that not exist?

Yeah. But. I, at least I haven't found it yet, and nobody that I've, you know, worked with has been able to refer me to one. And so navigating that just requires help as far as I'm concerned. And, you know, you can get somebody to, to help struggle through all of that with you. you'll come out the other side, I think. Better for it.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I think you alluded to this earlier, but I would love either to you to reiterate or expand upon it. What's, if everything goes well, what's the long term vision for Apollo 21? I know you mentioned a venture studio, but what, beyond that or what's kind of the goal of the mission? The North Star.

Danny: I'll be honest, to some extent, I'm still figuring that out. You know, we're we're a young company and you know, you start off on day one and you just kinda go, okay, I'm gonna open the doors. Can I get somebody to help me keep the lights on? Can I get enough money into, you know, to pay the people that are gonna help me build it?

And once you kind of get over the hump and feel like maybe you have a couple of a couple of clients and a couple opportunities in front of you, that isn't exactly the worry anymore, although that certainly never goes. Then you kind of had the opportunity to start looking towards the future.

And so, like I said, I mean literally just in the last month, we're getting to a point where we can explore creating products for ourselves and things that, that kind of establish or aligned to you, that vision that I've described. And so the closest that I think I could offer right now is that the idea of sitting somewhere between a solutions oriented consulting business, Does what we do that helps clients and customers build technology and solve business problems is kind of step one.

And then combining that in an interesting way with the idea of investing with our partners and investing in ourselves to me sounds really interesting. You know, there's a long road to travel there. There's always the question, especially with the Venture Studio type of model, of whether you're gonna raise a fund and actually start contributing money into the partners that you're working with.

I also have been operating on the theory that investing time is a, is kind of a valid and potential way to make that work that could make life easier for everybody. And Yeah, you know, I mean that we don't necessarily have to go. Raise a fund, but could actually do that either internally or by investing Yeah.

From within the company back into the things that our partners are pursuing. And we're starting to see some traction around that idea with some of the partnerships that I described earlier. And you know, as I mentioned a couple of times now, getting our own products out into the market, further support that idea and.

I could see a future where success means that we've spun out a couple of companies that are operating independently, where, you know, we're still pursuing client work and helping other people do exactly that, or helping other people streamline their own business or get their companies off the ground.

All of it's exciting to me. And so, any or all of that sounds like a great future and I think, you know, it just comes down to figuring. in the same way that our clients need to figure out what product market fit is. So do we And yeah. You know, we're traveling down that road, but I will not begin to tell you that we've solved it yet.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. One founder told me that product market fit is a point in time. And so as time moves on, so has, so does the fit and so it kind of evolves and develops and becomes an organism that maybe you not had planned to create, but also something that, that very much. The direction. So, it's awesome to hear that, that you're very much on that road.

Danny: Oh, I agree with that a hundred percent. I mean, if you wanna talk about advice, that's actually a great piece of advice and you deserve the credit for this one. But it was another founder, not me, . Well, all right. At least you deserve the credit for bringing it up. But the idea that your company tomorrow might not be what you thought it would be, or you know, what you think it is today, I think is something that every founder kind of has to get comfortable with.

In order to get to that point in time that you're describing where you feel like you have product market fit. If you're too stringent about what it is you're going out into the world to create, then you're probably never gonna get there because ultimately what you're building is what's in your head and not what's in your customer sense.

Yeah. So at some point you've gotta kind of. come to terms with the fact that you might be wrong, but it doesn't mean that you know you're gonna fail.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. What are some of the biggest risks that Apollo 21 faces today?  

Danny: you know, I come from an agency and a services background, and from day one of Apollo 21, I've been extremely cognizant of getting caught in.

trap is kind of a tough word, but in the in the moment of, you know, we staff up for a big client who has a need and eventually for whatever reason, that client goes away. And, you know, often that happens when there's a change in leadership on the client side and they wanna make their mark and so they move their business elsewhere.

Being able to react to that and not finding myself in a position where, , I have a team that suddenly has to be paid for, but you know, I don't have the client to pay for. It has always been something that is kind of the biggest risk in my mind. And, you know, as a services company, people are our primary cost and we're fully remote.

So, you know, we don't have to worry about office space or anything like that, which is great. But you know, we manage that risk by having kind of a combined team of employees. Are kind of the trusted leadership within the organization, and then augmented by contractors who are focused on specific projects and who, let me be clear, you know, their family and they feel as much like a part of our company as our employees do, especially the folks that have been working with us for, you know, the better part of a year now.

But at the same time, the harsh reality is that they are contractors and they're contractors for a reason. If my world implodes, I need to know that you know, a certain subset of the team can be I'm gonna sound really harsh here, but can be offloaded without impacting my business negatively to the point where, you know, it puts the entire company underwater.

Yeah. And luckily I have found some partners who are able to work with us and kind of supply on demand people resources that we can spin up and spin. Very quickly. And, you know, that's what their business is designed for. And so it happens to align perfectly with that side of our business. And frankly, I don't think that we would've gotten to the point that we're at if I hadn't kind of, managed to find that partnership and to establish a team that works the way that I'm describing.

So it's, it has it's really helped me kind of get around that key risk. And then from. . You know, it's the same thing that I think just about any other services type of company would say, you know, continuing to fill the top of funnel, finding the right clients, finding the right partners to work with, ensuring that you know, that our pricing is competitive enough that when we do find those right partners, we can get the contracts that we need signed and yeah, so on and so forth.

So, Those are the things that, that I lose sleep over every time.  

Julian: Yeah. . Yeah. I always like to ask this next question as not only selfish research, but also for my audience as well. Whether it was early in your career or now, what books or people have influenced you the most?  

Danny: Oh God. I'm gonna give two pat answers and , they're pat answers because they, you know, these books gained popularity for a reason, but they were kind of pivotal in terms of timing for me and.

The first one years ago, as I said, I started in advertising and I hit a real downer moment where I just wasn't enjoying doing it and was debating whether to go back to grad school for a second master's degree, which just, you know, was a path forward, but didn't sound like a real exciting prospect after after six years of college and I read I went to the bookstore and about a pile of books that were popular at the time, but kind of aligned to.

My sensibility and my thinking, and the one that I remember the most is Seth Godin's Purple Cow. And it was one of the first books that I sat down and read that really made me feel like the things that I didn't enjoy about my career in advertising. And when I say advertising I'm, as I mentioned, I've been doing this for a while.

I'm talking TV and radio and print ads like back in the day before. You know, before the internet was so deeply ingrained in our lives and I just, I wasn't enjoying it. And, you know, this was at a time, this was 2004, 2005, right around the time where marketers and advertisers were realizing the impact that the internet would have and that the ability for brands to get closer to consumers and to approach that relationship in a manner that wasn't, I'm gonna put a billboard up and because I put a billboard up, you are going to want to buy the thing on the billboard, but rather could could look more like a relationship and more like a conversation was all very new.

And you know, in my mind a lot of that kind of thought process was exemplified in Purple Cow. And it was just one of those books that I read and kind of went, oh my God, I'm not insane. There is a group of people that thinks this way. I need to be a part of this. And. You know, that stack of books and Purple Cow in particular led me to refocusing the entirety of my job search and ultimately just kind of helped me re-articulate the way that I viewed the world.

And lo Andhold, about six weeks later, I had a new job at a company that I absolutely loved called Polk, which was the New York office of a similarly named London company. And I had an opportunity to work with the founders there very closely. , that experience deeply shaped the rest of my career.

Yeah, it was the first company that I had worked for that was a service company where the founders of the company and the leadership of the company were willing to say, no, there's another way to do it. There's a better way to do it. And lived and breeded that mentality and that opportunity, and it was utterly eye-opening.

That was what sort of led me to my involvement with some smaller companies and to start kind of eyeballing the startup space and beginning to understand what that world looked like. Which leads me to my second book, which is again, a little bit of a pat answer, but the Lean Startup Yeah. Did the same thing for me in the world of startups and technology that Purple Cow did for me in how I approached the thinking of kind of brands and the relationship to consumers and.

Each of those are widely known books that I'm, you know, I'm not gonna earn any points for sharing something exclusive and unknown with you. But at the same time, they were both utterly pivotal for my career in terms of how I thought about what I was doing and how I approached the work that I was doing, the way that I was thinking about again, the relationships between brands and people and technology and people, and then what it meant for.

technology to enable people to create brands for other people. Yeah. And so, you know, if you look at you know, I, forgive me, I don't remember exactly when Lead Startup was published, but, you know, 2010, 2012, something like that. You know, if you look back at the last 10 to 12 years and the way that brands are interacting with consumers out of the.

Based on the technology that we all have at our disposal and the you know, the proximity of that technology to our everyday lives because, you know, we're all walking around with these things in our pockets. Yeah, everything has changed and I feel like my career hit at a really interesting time where, as I said, I started in the dark ages of advertising with, you know, print and television.

And saw the launch of the iPhone and watched the impact of that, and then social media and then the ability for technology to enable direct to consumer applications and brands and companies and products to, to kind of hit the market. It's changed everything in a way that I feel like I've gotten to kind of experience all the way through in a very short period of time.

You know, in the grand scheme of things that has really shaped. , the way that I approach things, and therefore certainly the way that that Apollo 21 functions and what I look for in a team, what we look for in clients and partners and how we approach solving problems for them. Amazing. That was a very long answer to a question about two books.

Julian: No. It was, I love the thought process. I love the evolution of and also I think timing is so hugely important in a lot of founders' journey, not only with building and starting companies, but the information or the mentorships, the relat. It's all kind of the whole outlier mentality from from Gladwell when he talks about, you know, a lot of the exceptional people are, I don't wanna say, I don't wanna say fortunate, but they find themselves in a period of timing that compounds on itself and leads them to, you know, where they end up being.

And I love that, that it can be for anyone as well if you're kind of open a keen eye to it.  

Danny: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, change begets change and change begets opportunity. And so as you look around and kind of look at what's changing around the world you know, I think that's where you can find opportunity and understand it doesn't have to be big.

I mean, to throw another one out there, you know, the a hundred dollars startup, I think is of a similar ilk, but from a very different mentality and. I love the idea of the a hundred dollars startup, kind of balanced with the ideas of the Lean startup and the idea that starting a thing or making a thing that you can put out in the world doesn't have to be a huge corporate endeavor.

Yeah. You know, and like the tools and technology to support those efforts are available today in ways that they've never been available before. I mean, the idea that I could sit down and by tomorrow, Open a storefront that sells a thing that literally transacts money that I can put out in the world and own wholly without, you know, needing to think twice about it is amazing to me.

Yeah, and you know, I have a side gig that is belonging Short of it is a Shopify store. And I, you know, I do it partly because it's in a niche interest area that I have fun with, partly cuz it gives me an opportunity to, pardon me, turn my attention away from Apollo 21 every once in a while.

Decompress a little bit, but at the same time, it's also kind of my experimentation zone. Yeah. And it forces me to remain in touch with the tactical side of things that we're talking to clients about. And it, it puts me in their shoes because I'm solving the problems for myself that I'm hearing them bring to the table when they come to Apollo 21.

And, you know, whether. Understanding how Shopify works or connecting a commerce platform to an Instagram account, or understanding the impact of TikTok on the world of digital commerce. Like all of those things are new, but they're new in a way that is infinitely approachable and that just about anybody can sit down and start exploring.

And I, I don't know. I love that. To me, that just. It opens the door for everybody's kind of entrepreneurial spirit to come to life and it removes a lot of the limitations that I think people see around, oh, well, I can't start a company or I don't know how to bring this to life. And the reality is you just sort of go and do it and figure it out along the way.

Julian: Yeah, I love that. The go and doit mentality, it's it's, I think something that I dunno if it's archetype or personality type or attribute that founders have, but it's like stubbornness to continue moving forward and also the lightheartedness to just take on any challenge because I don't think a lot of people talk about that when you face.

It's the weight of how you view them, that. Your motivation to go and move past them or overcome them and yeah. It's so, so awesome to hear you talk about what inspired you and the creative side the tactical side and how it influences your company. And I know we're, I know we're over the episode, but it's, so I think we could talk on hours on end.

And in terms of startups and building, but I always like to give my guests a chance to give us your plugs. What are your LinkedIns, what are your websites? What are your Twitters? Where can we get involved and see the amazing things that Apollo 12 is, or Apollo 21, excuse me is pushing out there into the market and the product that that we hope to see launched soon.

Danny: Yeah. Our website is apollo21.io and you'll have to forgive me, I don't even remember things like our Twitter account because we just haven't been good about using them. So we're Apollo 21 on LinkedIn. I think we're Apollo 21 io on Twitter, if I remember correctly. But tweet at us. I'll try and answer.

You know, we've been focused on building and not tweeting lately. But we are working on bringing a new product to market that is basically a platform to help CEOs, office managers, et cetera, kind of maintain an awareness of where their company is spending their meeting time and thinking about kind of what are the analytics of meetings, if you will.

Yeah. And we are really excited to bring it to market and hope that. I'm gonna put a stake in the ground and we're aiming for the end of the year, but you know, we'll see how that goes. And of course we will share that on Product Hunt and all the usual suspects as well. So. Amazing. Keep an eye out for it there, please.

Julian: Amazing. Well, Danny, I hope you enjoyed yourself on the show, and thank you so much for joining.  

Danny: I did. Thank you. Appreciate it.

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