Julian: Thank you so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have Olliver Barr, co-founder of Finterest. Finterest is the first native Bitcoin borrow and lending platforms trustfully operated on the internet. Computer users can borrow and lend native Bitcoin, icp, and stablecoin with ease.

Oliver, thank you so much for joining the show. I'm really excited to chat with you and your experience as a founder and kind of building around a really revolutionizing kind of new product and new technology being the ICP And having you kind of describe it to our audience a little bit more in depth and the exciting components of it as well.

Before we get into all that good stuff, what were you doing before you started started the company?  

Olliver: Yeah, so I've been in the blockchain space for a handful of years now. Kind of initially just as a speculator. I thought a lot of the tech was really cool, but initially I my friends were into crypto trading and that's kind of how it brought me.

My background is in math, and that's what I studied back in college. Yeah, I was gonna kind of go into data science that, that route. But I had the good fortune of graduating right into the pandemic of 2020. So jobs were not super available. And it was kind of a blessing in disguise. I decided to go all in on learning blockchain development.

So I was a solidity coder for a while. That's the Ethereum smart contracting language. So I, I did that for a couple years. Had a great. Learned so much about that. And it was a super fun time and so I was kind of just working on hopping around from project to project, doing cool stuff.

And I eventually started working on this project with a couple of friends that I met in New York and through them that's how I met my co-founder Carl Sax. He was their front end at that gig. And yeah, we just we hit it off, worked super well together and. Yeah, that kind of, that project started wrapping down at some point and we were what's next?

And yeah. I'd been following the internet computer for a while. I'm not sure how familiar audience is with that. We can dive into that a little more later. But it had been a project that I'd known about for a while and was interested in, so we kind of just sat down and started brainstorming, like, what would be the big like decentralized finance thing that we could build on ICP that needs to get built.

So yeah that's kind of where it all.  

Julian: Yeah. Is there anything in particular that, that is obviously Solidity is a different overall language and kind of enables the different components of Ethereum or companies to build DS and other protocols on onto the Ethereum chain. But is there anything in particular that you see that is, is kind of, Yeah.

New or innovative in the space that excited you to start, you know, learning in that language. Cuz there's other languages like Viper and, you know, if you wanted to go into, what is it, like c a or something like that to learn other other languages. But what about solidity kind of attracted you and attracted your attention?

Olliver: Yeah. . I mean, initially it was mostly kind of just out of necessity. That's where the most demand for things was initially. Yeah. But honestly I've grown to appreciate Solidity a lot. It's kind of an interesting programming language. A language where kind of like money is one of the kind of global variables.

Being able to work with Ether in that way. So, that, that was kind of an interesting aspect of it. I had a real blast. It's super easy to like spin up DS really quickly. And test them out and actually get them to function really quickly compared to other programming languages. So, yeah, it is a real blast to work with.

You can write pretty sophisticated like financial tools with just 50, a hundred, 150 lines of codes. So, I think it's a pretty cool language. I definitely want to get better at it as time goes on. Unfortunately, I haven't had much chance to work on it recently cuz I've been running interest.

But it definitely holds a special place in my heart.  

Julian: Okay. Yeah. What were some of the cool projects that you were part of before you started Finterest?  

Olliver: Yeah, so initially I was working on a lot of NFT stuff. So, I helped out this startup with, they were trying to do kind of a. NFT marketplace that would tie in directly with their like NFT generative contracts.

Julian: So, they the team had a lot of friends in like Hollywood and the LA art scene that were all interested in NFTs, but they don't really have the coding background to get into it. So they wanted to make like some pretty boiler plate nft like generator contracts. Yeah. So I worked on those.

I worked on their market. And then kind of the next big thing that I worked on was called Cheese, cheese Game. That's where I met my co-founder Carl. And it was a pretty fun project. It was kind of like a little gamified DeFi project. So we had I don't know if you ever played the board game, mouse trap when you were a kid.

So it's like a, it's like a little 3D thing where you set up these mouse traps and you move mice around the board trying to get cheese and it sets off little contraptions. So the idea was we kind of make like a version of that. We have these NFTs that you could buy little cats, mice and mouse tracks, and you could stake them and you'd get some rewards and there was little randomized chance game events and stuff.

So it was a real fun project. It gained a lot of traction actually, and we learned a ton of lessons from it. And so yeah, I give that a lot of credit for kind of jumpstarting my entrepreneurial journey in the crypto. .  

Yeah. Did you always kind of feel that you would be, were you always searching for something to start or it was kind of the catalyst of meeting your co-founder and discussing the ideas that, that, you know, brought this idea about?

Olliver: Yeah, the blockchain space is a very kind of like inherently entrepreneurial space. Yeah. With traditional kind of like tech, there's a pretty clear like path that you're like, you go to college, you get some internships, you study your lead code questions, you go apply for Apple or whatever. M. And it's a pretty, it's a pretty like set out, step by step progression.

That's not the case at all in the blockchain space. There's no real like, hiring infrastructure on that level. So even to get just like a regular job, you have to have some level of entrepreneurial instinct to kind of get your name out there and start stuff. So, I, yeah, kind of to get drawn into this space, there was already some entrepreneurial, yeah, like I said, instinct.

And so it was a pretty natural progression to move from working on a project to running a project. When the teams are that small, you're always kind of doing more than one task anyways, so it's not a huge, like, distinct jump from being a coder to running the project. Yeah, so yeah, it was pretty natural.

Julian: yeah. Des describe the ICP and the internet computer and also not only describe it, kind of the mechanics of it, but the, I think significance to what it's gonna do to a lot of the technology that it'll be built upon and how that's gonna kind of change not only how things are built, but also the types of people and the accessibility for those items that are being built or those applications or technology.

On top of that.  

Olliver: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess there's a couple of angles to go at it from, like initially, the thing that drew me to ICP was that they were presenting a new kind of paradigm for how blockchains would function and how DS would live on chain. So kind of their, the initial thing is that with Ethereum or their side chains you have your, you have the contracts that live on chain, and so that's pretty decentralized for the most part.

It's really hard for someone to take down a smart contract and ethere. You've seen the government kind of try and do what they can with like tornado cash and things like that, but really all they can do is control the on and off ramps like the centralized exchanges. But if people have ether on the blockchain and they want to interact with these contracts, it's pretty hard for people to stop it.

However, yeah, the front end of tornado cash could easily be taken down, cuz most likely it lives on aws, Amazon Web Services. Or some other pretty centralized hosting service. If someone wants to take that down, it's a lot easier. And once they do take that down for 90% of users, it's pretty infeasible to interact with the contracts just on the blockchain layer.

So kind of the idea of ICP is instead of just having your contracts live on chain, you're gonna have your front end live on chain. You're back in on chain, everything's gonna be on chain and split up between different nodes, so it's pretty hard to take things down. So that was the initial thing that spoke to me was that it's like a real next.

And the decentralization of blockchains kind of in the same way from Bitcoin to Ethereum. You got that big next step of these programmable smart contracts that interact with money. I think ICP presented a real next step of, okay, we have these smart contracts, but now we want everything to be on chain, everything to be decentralized.

And so yeah, compared to kind of all of the layer twos and side chains, . Sure. They have like more transactions per second than Ethereum or they're whatever. They have one or two advantages. This is a real like paradigm shift in my opinion. So that was the main thing that drew me to it was that fully decentralized ethos, which is something that's really close to my heart in the crypto space and I think a lot of people I lose inside of, but in light of recent events may be coming back in fashion.

So, Yeah.  

Julian: How does it affect, you know, obviously it affects how these applications are built, but does it affect the end user in any way or and if so, how does it affect them?  

Olliver: Yeah, I think mostly in a positive way, actually. One of the things you mentioned was kind of asking like what different types of things could be built on ICP that other chains wouldn't really support?

And I think the big thing that we're seeing initially is like decentralized social media platforms. You would think with having everything hosted on. To like load a website, you might think it'd take a long time cause you're having to grab from all these different nodes, but it's really close to traditional web speed.

When you when you load up these platforms, so one of the big ones is Discover DSC vr. They're a big social media platform that's entirely hosted on icp. And if you go to it, it pretty much is as quick as whatever, Reddit or Twitter or something like that. So, for the end user, I. Kind of the end goal for ICP or for crypto in general is that people are gonna be using these platforms and interacting on these blockchains and they don't even necessarily know it.

And I think that user experience is gonna be super important for kind of attracting the next wave of users. I've always kind of said like, until using a d DeFi platform is as easy as like downloading an app on your phone and using that, then we're gonna be a far, far ways away from like our maximum potential.

I think that user experience is one of the big things that ICP can lend itself toward.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah, we actually had Rick on the show from Discovery.  

Olliver: I love that. I got drink with him a couple weeks ago. He's actually also in Portland, so another,  

Julian: yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. We were at an event.

It's so funny how the founder community just kind of, you know, melds and you can kind of connect with those individuals and I mean, he was super bullish on the accessibility of it and building on top of it, and you know, with a lot of these platforms kind of under fire in terms of social media in particular, I'm excited to see what'll come about for his.

But shifting to interest tell us a little bit about, you know, what kind of, what you're building and also. How is it different from the traditional ways that, you know, you can borrow and lend Bitcoin out, you know, whether it is, you know, the component of having it be on the icp, but but also what it means for your end user in particular that you're excited about.

Olliver: Yeah, so one of the cool kind of features of the IC that I didn't mention beforehand was there, there native blockchain integrations. Basically they're coming out with the native Bitcoin integration soon. So that means that canisters, which are the ICP equivalent of smart contracts, will be able to hold a Bitcoin balance that lives on the Bitcoin blockchain.

So basically all these different nodes will have basically a Bitcoin private key split up between them. And any time you wanna make a transaction, send Bitcoin received Bitcoin or send. The you'll make that signature from these different nodes all signing with their part of that private key. So, that means that you can send Bitcoin directly to our canisters and get the same functionality that you would with like sending ICP to one of our canisters.

And that is kind of the alternative to the traditional bridging system that we have right now. So if you want to interact with most DeFi applications with your Bitcoin, you're gonna have to bridge that over to Ethereum or one of the other side chains. And we've seen in the last year and a half, exploit after exploit on these bridges.

It's a really complex thing to build a bridge between blockchains. Blockchains aren't really built to interoperate in that way, as of. And so there's almost always some, there's always a kind of point of weakness within these bridges. The way it usually works is you send your assets to a contract on one chain and they get locked up there, and then a contract on the chain you're bridging to unlocks or mints, some tokens for you that represent your holding there.

So there's these like huge two attack vectors and there has to be some communication between them. So it's really needlessly complex and dangerous. Yeah, I've, yeah, there's been, I. Over a billion, billion and a half in Bridge Hacks in the last. So that, that's kind of the main kind of selling point for us is that instead of, and the other thing is bridges are expensive, like a RIN Bridge, which is one that we hold in pretty high regard as far as being pretty decentralized.

I think they take 0.1% on the way there and 0.2 on the way back, don't quote me on that, but something close to that. So if you're doing a full round trip, sending your Bitcoin Ethereum, interacting with some DeFi contracts, bringing it back, you're going to, you're paying so much in fees. Hard to get your money's worth.

So, yeah. For us it's as cheap as just transferring Bitcoin from one address to another. So that's, yeah, that's the main selling point. And when the Ethereum integration goes live, that's gonna unlock Ether plus all the ERC 20 tokens on Ethereum. Yeah. So we're kind of hoping to serve as the central hub between all these different block.

Kind of increasing the interoperability of them which I think is a pretty important goal. Like I said earlier about users not kind of knowing what blockchain they're on. I think that is kind of the direction that things will be moving on in the future. You're transferring assets from one chain to another.

You're using the DeFi protocols you want to and transferring back, and you don't even necessarily know that's happening. So I think on kind of all three of those, a user experience point of view, a cost point of. and a safety point of view. It's a way better solution than bridges.  

Julian: Yeah. Well, I What's been super, what's been challenging for you in terms of building your customer base and building around something that is so new and innovative, and is there logic education that you have to communicate to your customers?

What, I guess is not only challenging, but I guess, you know, something that is inherently you know, I guess tough about working with that space that is so, so new innovative  

Olliver: yeah, so there's kind of two components to it for us. One is the already existing ICP community. Yeah. And that's a lot easier to kind of get our message out to.

A lot of people are waiting for someone to build these big DeFi applications on icp. So within the ICP community, people are really excited about interest and there's a lot of kind of community infrastructure already set up. Some good like ICP specific podcasts and news sources and stuff like that.

The community's been really welcoming and really excited for our product. But the next outside of icp the segment that we want to target are people that are using Bitcoin Bridges on a frequent basis. We were saying like the top 5% of Bitcoin Bridge users. Cause it's just as a no-brainer for them to use our product.

And to come to the, I. In general, so we're saving them a ton of money. Also, when you, I forgot to mention this before. Anyone that's used a bridge before knows kind of how heart wrenching it is to have your money in transit. Usually there has to be a bunch of confirmations that go through. It can take a couple hours, and if you're moving real money, that's.

That's not a fun couple of hours to be living through. So, that's been our kind of main target is that audience right there. It's hard to reach Bitcoin people in general. They're a bit kind of insular and not super trusting of new technology, which is understandable. I don't blame them for that at all, but kind of trying to convince them to come try out this novel technology has been hard.

But like we said, targeting those people that use bridges often, they're a little bit more risk tolerant. That has been a bit easier. But yeah, it is a lot of education showing people how ICP works, how it is actually pretty decentralized. Even in its current state. It's moving to be more decentralized over time, but even in a state right now it's pretty solid.

But yeah, I mean, we're kind of the first people doing this, so there's definitely gonna be some kind of adjustment period where people are learning about it and people don't wanna put their money on it right away. They want to wait and see what happens. We understand that we're not we're not freaking out about that, but it's definitely challenging to get kind of traditional Bitcoin Maxs to try something new.

As much as we love them Yeah. They're not the most risk.  

Julian: Yeah. As a founders. And is there anything that you're progressively getting better at that, that you weren't, you know, super good at the start?  

Olliver: I mean, every, everything that we're doing right now, or everything that I'm doing right now at least, is pretty new to me.

Like everything. There's nothing that I'm doing where I'm like, oh, I know how to do this a hundred percent. Like I'm super confident in it. And I think that's a good thing in general. Like if you're not challenging yourself trying new things, you're just gonna be stagnating and that's not a healthy way to live your life.

So it's been, it is been a blast. Everything I've learned so much about business side of things, fundraising, working with lawyers and marketing teams, all that stuff. I'm a pretty, like, I'm a coder at heart. I'm an engineer at heart, and so all this stuff is a huge learning experience, but it's been a. blast I'm having a great time.

Yeah. I do miss coding sometimes, but I wouldn't trade what I'm doing right now for much. .  

Julian: Yeah. How do you, how you managed to kind of, I guess mitigate the impact or I guess the weight of going through the, those learning curves of like, you know, learning the different functions of, you know, building a startup, running the different components of your organization and also, you know, challenging things like raising money and building and kind of juggling all the different responsi.

A lot of founders say it's mentors, it's people, it's the team. What in particular to you kind of helps you go through this process and and kind of learn and expedited pace?  

Olliver: Yeah. We've gotten super lucky to have really good advisors with us from the start. So we've had people that have a lot of tech startup experience.

Yeah. And even the people that we're doing fundraising through, they've been super helpful with us. Every step of the. Our announcement isn't quite out about that yet. So keep an eye out for that. But the the firm that shall not be named has been super helpful with us every step of the way.

But yeah, really the advisors have been super key, especially going into that fundraising round kind of teaching us things like, okay, how are we gonna make like cost projections keep things realistic, but also give ourselves a bit of wiggle room, like how long our runway we should be shooting for our initial investment.

That kind of so luckily we didn't have to kind of, we didn't have to learn all of that ourselves. We had some people helping us along the way and we just got super lucky with our team. All of the engineers that worked for us I knew before this started up and I knew they were quality people.

So, we, yeah, we lucked out on the team and we lucked out on the advisors for sure. So I I guess, having like those connections within the blockchain space has been invaluable. The time that I spent before I was working, like traveling and meeting people, I kind of had the opportunity to do that, which was super lucky.

And that has paid off in dividends. So, yeah, if you're interested in this space, I can't recommend enough going to local like Ethereum meetups. There's most big cities, even smaller ones, have a pretty strong like Ethereum community. And even if you're building on not Ethereum, people that are in the Ethereum community are pretty welcoming to interesting novel technologies.

So, that's where I got my start. That's where I got my first gig was Ethereum meetup locally. I can't recommend enough. Even if you're just a bit curious about the space. Go check that out. Yeah.  

Julian: Yeah. I love that. How in particular does interest or wealth interest make money in in, is it users adapting or using the product?

Is it kind of having a certain, like how a lot of currencies kind of min their own coins and then kind of hold a certain amount. And as that interest grows, what in particular in your mechanics of operation will kind of profit? .  

Olliver: Yeah, so I'll run through the kind of how interest works initially.

So it's a pretty pretty traditional borrowing and lending protocol. So, you go lend your assets out on chain and they get pulled together with all the other assets. And then once you have some collateral on there, you can borrow against your assets. And as you hold your borrowed position, you accrue interest over time and then you go pay that back, and then you can withdraw your collateral or you can just deposit and collect interest over time, not borrow.

We take a small fee on just the interest that gets repaid. So that's how we make money. And then there's also liquidations that happen. So if your position we give you a certain limit of how much you can borrow against your collateral and if due price fluctuation that changes, then anyone can come liquidate that position.

That's not just on us, but we'll probably have to bootstrap that initially cuz there's not a huge liquidation community. And the same way there is on like ether. Especially cuz this is a bit more technical, but ICP doesn't really have the ability to do flash loans. So on most traditional e chains, if you want to go liquidate a huge position, you can go borrow money and then liquidate that position, get their assets and repay that all in one transaction.

You don't have to front the collateral yourself, so that's gonna be a bit of a challenge. That's one of the kind of, there's a lot of quirks about ICP where there's not kind of a solution already pre-built for us, we've kind of had to come up with solutions our. But yeah, that's where we're making our money.

But more than just the money that we make, it's pretty valuable that we'll have a lot of assets locked up on our platform, and we'll be able to kind of partner with other DeFi apps in this space. They can use our product, they can lend out on our product, or we can use our TBL somehow. So, more than just the money that we will be making from it, that adds to the treasury.

There's a. Kind of power and influence that you get from having a big TL stash on your website. Yeah. So yeah.  

Julian: Yeah. What are some of the biggest, you mentioned a couple with the technology being, you know, something that you'll have to build kind of yourself without pre-bill solutions, but what are some other challenges that Finterest faces today or some of the biggest,

Olliver: yeah, I mean, we've had to, pretty much everything that we've done, we've had to kind of create ourselves, like the architecture for the platform is very traditional bar.

Similar to Compound or Ave, we're not trying to reinvent the wheel, but due to the quirks of the icu, there have been a lot of things that we've had to kind of create. One of the things a bit technical, but on Ethereum or EVM chains all transactions are atomic. So that means if you call it function and you get like halfway through the function and then something fails, everything gets rolled back.

And so no harm, no foul. You just pay a little bit of gas. But nothing crazy happens if a function fails halfway. But with icp everything kind of works in tandem at the same time. So, it's not atomic like that, it doesn't automatically rule back. So in theory, if you're interacting with the DeFi protocol and like you submit some money and then some checks happen and then that fails, That money is still gonna be in that canister there.

So you have to have kind of manual, like rollback functions or ways to make sure that transactions go through a hundred percent or they fail. So that's one thing that we've had to create. We've, yeah we created that pretty early on and it's been working well. Let's see. Also, there's no, so, like I said earlier, we have liquidations on our platforms, so obviously that means we have to keep track of price of the assets and.

Most people use Chain Link for that. They're great. I love Chain Link, but they don't currently offer their services on the ic. So we've had to build our own decentralized price feed for that. And so another cool feature of the IC is that Canister can make direct HTTP requests to website like APIs.

Yeah, so. We are able to grab price feeds from a bunch of different centralized and decentralized exchanges and kind of take the running out, or we're taking like the time weighted median of that. So even in theory, if several of those platforms go down or have some weird math error we're still safe.

So that's kind of what we've had to build as well. But yeah, it's been a lot, it's been a lot of fun kind of having. Run into these new problems that I hadn't seen before. Things that I'd taken for granted on Ethereum, having to come up with clever solutions for them.  

Julian: Yeah, that's incredible. If everything goes well, what's the long term vision for Finterest?  

Olliver: Yeah, so I think a borrow lending protocol is a pretty foundational part of any DeFi community or ecosystem. And so that was our vision for interest is we want to make a really robust and simple borrowing and lending protocol.

Then more complicated and novel DeFi ideas can get built on top of, and things that maybe only ICP can do with their kind of web speed and their fully decentralization. I think there can be, I think products can get built on the ic, which work as well and as quickly as like, centralized versions of that product, but in a really decentralized way and that, that makes me.

That along with kind of seeing the IC as a hub between all these different blockchains where assets from all of them can all live on ICP canisters and people are gonna be using our product not even knowing what chain they're on. I think those are the two visions we have. So we want to make that, that real robust foundational layer and then either us or someone else can come build really cool stuff on top of that.

Julian: Yeah. That's awesome. What in particular is hard about your job?  

Olliver: Huh, that's a good question. I guess a lot of it is there's not like one singular skill that I can work on. When you're a programmer, it's a bit easier, a bit kind of more straightforward. Like, you know, you know what you're not good at, you know what you're good at, you know where you have to improve.

But with being a co-founder of an early stage startup like this, you have to wear several different. You have to basically do everything besides, I guess, I mean, even my co-founder, he was the front end on our project for a while. So we've even done some of the coding for the project. But there's so many different, like small tasks that you have to be good at all of at the same time.

So that's a bit challenging. Also, I've had to kind of step into more of a managerial position where I'm working with coders and I'm kind of architecting how the product's gonna work, but translating that to like what the functions are gonna look like, how they're gonna work exactly. So I'm kind of having to translate from like English to code where if you're a coder, usually you get like pretty direct directions on like what X, y, and Z has to happen.

Yeah. . Yeah. It's a huge learning experience, having to wear all these different hats and work with coders on a managerial level. But it's a ton of fun, honestly. It's a lot of work. There's no doubt about that. You're gonna have to sacrifice kind of some aspects of your life, , but I don't know.

I wouldn't trade it for anything really. I'm having a blast. I'm learning so much. Yeah. And I'm super lucky that my, my team and our advisors and our investors are all really top-notch people. We haven't had really any issues on that front, which has made things a joy. .  

Julian: Awesome, man. I, I love to hear the journey and kind of the evolution of not only your responsibilities, but also the product and not only where it is, but where it's headed to.

And it's so exciting to see new technology adapted and utilized and. Created in a way that creates this inherent accessibility. Cuz in a lot of ways there's been such a barrier to entry with so many other types of technologies and products and things along that nature.

I always like to ask this question for my guests, one for selfish research but also for my audience as well. What books are people, whether it was earlier in your career or now, have influenced you the most?  

Olliver: Books? Yeah, actually I got one. This is one that I an MMA coach that I watched their videos recommended is actually, it's called Managing Oneself by Peter Drucker.

It's really short, it's really tiny. But it kind of talks about one of the main points that I took away from it was knowing your strengths and weaknesses is really, I. And trying to, you don't want to be a non-well rounded person, but there's also an extent to which just focusing on showing up your weaknesses is not gonna really give you any unique advantage.

You want to identify yourself, what are your strengths? What are you good at? And try and build yourself so that those are exemplified and you kind of have that unique edge. So yeah, it's like a strictly business book. This one's really. You can read it in 45 minutes easily. A bit more on the esoteric side of things.

A book called Reality Trans Surfing by what's the guy's name? Vadi. Ziland. He's some Russian guy. But it's a really interesting book. It kind of gives you a different way to interface with reality in a way. , it's a bit out there. It's a woo. If you're not into that kind of thing, maybe stay away.

If a bit of Russian esotericism is up your alley, I would highly recommend checking that out. I attribute a lot of success that I've had to to the principals. I've learned that book. So those are the two big. .  

Julian: Yeah. Amazing. Oliver I appreciate not only you sharing your experience and your story but also, you know, the advice you mentioned earlier in the show, and I always like to give my guests a chance to give us your plugs.

So let us know where we can support, where can we be a part of interest? Give us your LinkedIns, your website, your Twitters. Where can we be a part in even start using the technology..  

Olliver: Yeah, so right now we're not currently live. We've had our product finished for a while now, but we're still waiting on that Bitcoin integration to go live and waiting for our audit to get finished up before we go live.

But if you want to follow us on Twitter, we are Finterest icp. If you wanna follow me, I'm at @olliver_defi. My name has two l. I really gotta, I really gotta change that at some point or talk to my parents about that. Cause that's been a huge plan, the ask. But yeah. And my co-founder is Carl under Stacks.

Follow us on Twitter. We should be going live and pretty soon. But yeah, that's about it. Thank you so much for helping me on Julian. I appreciate it.  

Julian: Yeah, Oliver, I hope you enjoyed yourself and thank you again for being on the show.  

Olliver: Yeah, take care.