Julian: Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have Bob Miles, founder and CEO of Salad.com, which is a comprehensive cloud infrastructure platform, offering container as a service or cast for virtually any use case, whether it's bootstrapping VPN services, spinning up P2P gaming ecosystems, or securely distributing batch jobs to globally geo distributed nodes.

Bob, thank you so much for joining the show. It, it's so exciting to chat with. Also because you come from a, a bizarre background in, in piloting aerospace engineering and, and, you know, traveling the world. And I always love to talk to founders who have a lot of, you know, different , different experiences and, and, you know, kind of enriches their their ability to, I think, you know, adapt and navigate whatever their startup and environment is.

So before we get into all that good stuff though, what were you doing before you started Salad.com?  

Bob: Great to be here. Julian. A bizarre background. I'll, I'll take that. prior to Salad I was actually working at another startup. It was the startup that, that brought me out to the states, a consumer drone startup company called Teal in Utah.

And I was I joined as the fifth employee. Left as sort of the 40th ish employee and kind of danced around from product to project management to hardware. So wearing many hats as one does start.  

Julian: Yeah. What, what was the transition from going, you know, piloting outspace engineering to then, you know, building companies and, and looking from a product lens and, and, you know, building around which product is interesting because, you know, not only are you, you know, having discovery calls with users and going through different iterations of, you know, the viability of something go to market strategy.

You know, change the direction of a product. But typically people study product and, and then, and then jump into it. So what was the, yeah, what was the antithesis of getting into that?  

Bob: Yeah. There, there was no formal education for me in, in product that was trial by fire. Yeah, I, I sort of, the, the genesis for me was you always wanted to be a pilot.

Quickly learned. That was not for me. Once I got my, my private license and. Kinda recognized there's no creativity in flying for good reason, right? But, but I needed that creative outlet. So not knowing what to do. Went to university studied engineering and then lasted, got, got a great job. An engineering job at an airline lasted nine months.

And, and was sort of out in the startup space. So product was where I arrived. You know, I've got that technical background with engineering, so I'm dangerous, dangerous enough to kind of understand the technical side of it. But really it's the product that touches all of those things that you described before, which which excites me.

And, and sort of that's where I, where I landed with many, many attempts at different startups, a few successes that product along the way for sure.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. You spent some time building product both in Australia and, and also in, in the States. And then now, you know, as we chatted, you're in Puerto Rico.

But what, what's the difference between the consumers of the different, you know I guess, I guess target audiences that you were that, that you were building for, what did you have to consider? What were they interested in? Are they fundamentally different or, or are they similar in, in independence to like, you know, what their, their needs and problems are that you're solving?

Bob: Yeah. Every, every startup's got a kind of a different ideal customer profile. Mm-hmm. and even in real time at Seller, this is something that we, we deal with, we're building a marketplace. You know, you've got your supply side, you've got your demand side. The user persona for each is profoundly different and making sure that you you spend the time to, to, you know, as best you can truly understand each of those and kind of what makes him tick, what motivates him is super important.

So, yeah, over the years I've had many, many different, many different kind of target customers, I suppose. And, you know, happy, happy to build on. What we are dealing with today, reconciling with that marketplace, but definitely, definitely, you know, fundamental to, to being successful in a startup.  

Julian: Yeah, you know, I definitely, you know, want to get into, you know, in terms of Salad.com, the different personas, the different challenges of a two-sided marketplace.

You know, I run a company that, that, you know, works within a two-sided marketplace and it's very unique versus having, you know, an ideal customer profile, selling directly to them and really being kind of laser focused in that. I feel like it's like a juggling it's like juggling a lot of times when, when you're dealing with the two sided marketplace.

But, you know, and from a product perspective, how do you go. Uncovering what your users are needing. You know, a lot of founders have talked about different you know consumer reviews or going, getting on calls and chatting with, with their customers who are using their products, and and then dwindling down the, the different feedback that they're getting to actually focus on needs.

What is your process strategically to, to hone in on what you need to build and what you need to focus on?  

Bob: Yeah. Step, step one's always, you know, have, have a hypothesis to test, right? You, you gotta, you gotta kind of ground your process in a hypothesis and then, you know, the process to go out there and, and actually test it.

It kind of varies from from ideal customer profile, from ICP to icp. When I think about, you know, kind of answering this question in the context of salad, we spent four years initially we took that hypothesis around, you know, where compute sharing platform, kind of the, the, the sharing economy for, for compute resources, focusing on the supply side first, we had a hypothesis around who is our ideal customer profile, what's gonna make him tick? And, and step one was, you know, really low fidelity, but kind of higher volume. Let's do a survey. Let, let's, let's ask a bunch of questions. Try and kind of lower the cone of confusion based on that survey. And, and then the next iteration beyond that really was, was a whole lot of customer conversations and, and We found the context, the best kind of fishing ground, so to speak, for that was discord for, for, for the supply side of our market.

You know, discords, that, that chat application for gamers. Lots of conversations one on one, you know, things that aren't scalable, right? Like spending a couple hours with people here or there. Introducing the, the product, whether it's been built or you're about to build it, and just soliciting as much feedback as you can and, and more or less on the, on the demand side of the marketplace we're building.

It's the same process. You know, start with that hypothesis, but you're gonna source cuz that different demographic, different user. Source that feedback very differently. We never actually did a survey for, for our demand side. We just got straight into the one on one conversations.  

Julian: Yeah. What, describe a little bit more about what was the inspiration behind, you know, a Salad.com and, and what got you into there?

You were working with drones for a little bit and, and then now you're working with, with containers and installing computing services. What was that transition like? What inspired this particular product to, to really invest, you know, time and effort into?  

Bob: Yeah, I, I gotta be honest and say we, we didn't have the specific product vision at the point of founding for salad.

It was more recognizing an opportunity and understanding, you know, what the, the unlock is for that opportunity. And so rewind the clock back to 2017. We, we, we saw that. The unit economics for crypto mining back then were really compelling for gaming PCs like 30 to 50 to $70 per month. But most gamers weren't actually extracting that value.

And, and so that was a real curiosity to me. And, and so I spent a lot of time kind of pursuing that process that we just just described before, understanding the friction, understanding the pain points, you know, what's stopping gamers from extracting this value. and, and we kind of came up with these, these three hypotheses that we then went out and tested raised some money and, and, you know, built, kind of, kind of grew the snowball from there.

And, and so salad, I would, I would say was founded on recognizing an opportunity. And that opportunity was that the, the two-sided market problem for. A compute sharing marketplace had been solved. You know, we had crypto mining that represented this headless 24 7, 365 customer that you can switch on, switch off like a faucet and, and essentially solve the demand side.

And that allowed us to, to really focus on supply and, and understand what, what is gonna motivate, incentivize, and, and retain. Millions of gamers to share their compute resources when they're not gaming. And you know, it was, it was, if you think about our value proposition at the fundamental layer, it's, it's pretty uncomfortable.

It's when, when you are not using your computer, someone else will use it. And so it took us four years really to, to hit our, our breakout year, which was last year, where we just had spectacular growth. And, and that was off the back. Really just, just grinding and iterating to truly understand understand how, how to build and sustain a meaningful, you know, supply side of this marketplace.

Now where we are is, is actually facing a very similar challenge, but on the flip side of the market, which is how do we go and pick up customers and, and convince them. The product that we have built, the cloud computing product, we've built this managed container service is equal to or better than the cloud providers given the infrastructure that we have, which is not purpose-built dedicated data centers.

It's this distributed. Infrastructure layer that, that actually powers our, our container service. So it's, it's a doozy of a challenge, this one.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And, and you mentioned something about discord. Is, is that kind of one vehicle, I guess, you know, go to market strategy that you use to, you know, build trust and, and build kind of the supply side relationship with a lot of these containers?

Bob: Yeah, so, so the containers are or the, the suppliers are the gamers. And okay. One of our core kinda understandings that we talk about internally is, is that there is no sense in sharing your computer unless you're getting something that's really meaningful for you personally. Right. You might have this $50 of of latent value untapped within your computer, but if you can't turn that $50 into things that really motivate you, get you excited.

There's no sense in running our software. And so one of the big unlocks, one of the things we discovered relatively early was that Discord Nitro, which is their subscription service, was kind of the sweet spot for us in terms of a reward. So if you think about the value proposition it was when you're not using your computer, you know, run, run this software, and you can actually turn that into a Discord subscription, a Netflix subscription, and, and that's done sort of seamlessly.

It, it was really kind of scratching the itch of, of the value proposition and delivering value to, to the supply side gamers that, that, that Discord played a, a huge role in, and, and we worked directly with them today.  

Julian: Yeah, and that's so fascinating that it was more an incentive for a lot of these gamers to, to get subscriptions pretty much covered through using the software versus, you know, actual monetary value.

What, what's the psychology behind that? What is it just not having to, to take that extra step to, you know, have a subscription or maintain it? Is is it like, I'm just, I'm, yeah. What, what's the psychology behind caring for the value of, not money, but necessarily the ease of access to these different subscription channels?

Bob: Yeah. Yeah. So it's. You could ask the same question of like, airline points, right? , it's, it's, it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a, it's, there's, you know, you mentioned psychology. There's, there's a huge amount of psychology. I'm not qualified to talk about that, but, but I think, I think more so for, for a lot of values is it's, it's, you know, the demographic on the supply side.

If your, if your pc, if you have 10 to $20 of latent value, Within your PC that you're simply not extracting. If there's an easy way to extract that value and turn it into something that's, that's, you know, meaningful for you that, that's, that's a real motivator. Whereas, you know, once you get a little further along in your career and sort of 20 bucks a month is, you know, not so meaningful that that value proposition starts to fade a little bit.

So we, we've. A large amount of, of our users skew very young, where, you know, those unit economics of 20 bucks a month are really meaningful. Because you know, when you're at that age earning 20 bucks a month is, is, or earning 20 bucks a lot more difficult than when you're in kind of a, a more mature career.

So I think, I think that's a big part of it is, is just the access to to, to that little bit extra value that's, that's super meaningful at that young age.  

Julian: Yeah. Well talk about a little bit about the partnership side. You said, you know, you've got the supply side kind of down, you have that engine humming and now the priority has shifted in looking for more partners, looking for more clients to, to utilize the supply side.

And this pretty much, it seems like this, this. I, I don't know if it's an engine or it's like a reactor of source, creating all this energy around, you know, mining and building. How do you go about navigating these partnerships and who are you partnering with? Are you partnering with the direct, you know, currencies?

Are you partnering with you know, companies that have a layer on top of those currencies, you know, DeFi protocols? Who are your partners and, and how do you go about those, those relationships?  

Bob: Yeah, so, so we, we, we built inertia into. You know, the supply side, we, we built this, you know, minimum viable supply of tens of thousands of machines by tapping into to crypto.

and, and these are, these are kind of headless organizations, right? They're protocols. So, so there's no one you really need to interact with. It, it's just, it's just downloading the libraries and, and, and, you know, powering these protocols with compute and, and you get rewarded in coins or tokens for doing so.

So that, that's really characterized how we've bootstrapped the network. Today Bootstrap. By bootstrap, I mean paid for to, to, to build and maintain that supply. Now we find ourselves where, as I'm sure you know, everyone's aware these days, crypto's kind of in a bit of a bit of a lull, particularly after the events of last week.

So we've seen those unit economics really drop down. And now we're looking to really diversify revenue away from crypto to. , different individuals, startups, organizations that have a demand for compute resources. And, and one of the things that, that we talk about internally is, is salads good to have problem, which is we've very intentionally built this container service that's completely workload agnostic.

So, It can serve any workload within any vertical, any industry, any buyer, any decision maker, any user. You can't bring a product to market and be anything to, to, to, or everything to everyone. So getting, you know, to answer your question, getting very specific about who are our customers they actually do run the full gamut.

We've got NDAs with and, and POCs with Fortune 50 companies, right down to individual developers who are using. But we got two ideal customer profiles today. One of them, you know, and a handful of customers in each and, and we're, we're growing out that customer list generative ai, this, this explosion in generative AI has huge amount of demand for GPUs, and we just so happen to have a huge amount of GPUs, tens of thousands of them.

And then also these use cases. Companies to power their product or service. They're collecting data from the web for doing, you know, price comparisons or, or brand infringement detection or anything that requires kind of a distributed network to, to to, to extract data from the web. They're kind of the two use cases where we're finding that we are 10 x better than the, than the competi.

You know, we don't, we don't name customers individually, but those are the two verticals where we're really kind of growing out growing out the customer base, which is, which is super exciting.  

Julian: Yeah. It's, it is incredible to see the use of resources and, and how you've. Been able to kind of distribute them and, and make them valuable for not only one type of user, but you know, customers and startups and, and, and kind of u utilize, I think a commodity that's growing, which is computability.

You know, I feel like at one point it was very siloed into a few different. You know, industry leaders, but you know, there's resources kind of distributed as technology improves. Where, where is technology going in terms of the improvements it's making? Are, are gamers having more sophisticated hardware or is, is technology just getting more efficient and com compressed in terms of, you know, how much workload is done?

Like, what's exciting about the next level of, of advancement in, in just computing technology?  

Bob: Yeah. We're, I mean, we're, we're, we're seeing that across every layer of the stack, right? There's Moore's Law, the hardware layer, there's, there's efficiencies and improvements at the software layer right through from operating systems up to, up to the end and, and applications.

But touching on your point around, you know, you, you, you used the word commodity, yet there I, I really. As our lives become more and more digital the commodities of this century are gonna be these compute resources. So cpu, GPU cycles, bandwidth and storage and, and demand is exponential across all three o o of those resources, they, they, you know, eventually, we'll we'll see them as commodities, storage bandwidth and, and compute cycles.

And so that side of the marketplace, It's completely up and to the right. You know, demand is exponential in, in perpetuity as far as we can tell. On the supply side, that is where you have a finite resource, relatively speaking. You know, there's only so many data centers you can build. There's only so many consumer resources connected to the internet.

sitting overwhelmingly underutilized 23 hours a day. And that is the opportunity that we are chasing. We know that demand is exponential. You know, this, these, these resources will become commodities a as demand grows, but suppliers really finite. So from, from the beginning, we've been very intentionally supply focused.

You know, owning that relationship with suppliers that is where we become the category defining. business is, is, you know, being known as the easiest, most trusted way to share your compute. Because as the pressure builds in terms of demand for compute resources, there's a future inevitability where consumer hardware actually becomes part of, you know, the common cloud and, and such a nadella, Microsoft CEO talks.

Julian: Yeah. You know, thinking about, you know, I, I would categorize, you know, this product as very, you know, innovative. It's, it's very disruptive, you know, utilizing resources in, in a completely different and, and new way. How do you go about, you know, communicating that value or to both sides of the marketplace?

So, or is it, is it defining that focal point? You know, what is the process behind that? One founder told me that product market fit is, is a point in time and. It was such a, such a simple way to say that, you know, things are adapting and, and you have to adapt with them. How are you, what strategies are you using to, you know, adapt?

Bob: Yeah, it's product market fit is a, is a point in time. It's a, it's a lonely walk through the desert until you find that oasis. It's, it's it's, there's a lot of iteration work to get there, right. It's, it's trial and error. And, and so the, the. process to, to arrive at that. Really, I, I think it kind of circles back to that conversation we were having earlier around defining the ideal customer profile, the user persona, understanding what makes 'em tick.

You've gotta understand that fundamentally, then translate that into your feature set. And so for us here at Salad we know in isolation the two. Use the personas and what motivates them on the supply side and the demand side, you know, what, what they need, but how, how do we reconcile those two different needs once desires into, into, you know, cohesive marketing or messaging?

And so I, you think of it as a Venn diagram. There's only a very small overlap between the two. And what we are learning is the security and trust, or also trust and security trust. You know, fundamental to making this model work. You know, if you think about the Uber or the Airbnb model, without those five star ratings, that business doesn't exist.

It's, it's kind of like a mission critical part of the business. And so that's what connects these two user personas for us, and that's where we spend a lot of time, you know, on the supply side. delivered at a technical level, delivering security that is, you know, water tight. And then on the demand side communicating, you know, where do our responsibilities lies?

Where do your responsibilities lie in terms of making sure that there's no no issues or, or, or you know, open doors to be exploited on, on, on the security front. And yet that's a hot topic in, in cloud as it is, let alone with the infrastructure that we've got.  

Julian: Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about the traction. You said last year was, was a huge success, you know, you've seen a lot of growth. What were those growth numbers And if you are able to disclose any partnerships, you know, what partnerships were you excited to, you know collaborate and, and, and create to that you, you feel will be you know, exponential in terms of the ability to, to gain a new partners maybe within that industry or further?

Bob: Last year was our breakout year. We, we started the year. , you know, with, with top line revenue you know, in the hundreds of thousands and, and turned that 10 x in into the millions and, and really that the tailwinds for us were the unit economics that that 2021 brought us with, with the crypto space.

You know, we were kind of bullied by that. And, and there were a handful of, of. Formal and informal partnerships that kind of facilitated that really in the form of what rewards do we deliver to, to, to end users. But I would say the, the other, the other place where we had great partnerships really, really, you know, mutually beneficial, I would say is in the, the influencer marketing space.

So, so partnering with these different influencers, educating them on this, you know, radical value proposition that we've got and they. You telegram that message out to, to, to their followers and, and, you know, that really powered the growth engine. When I think about the demand side, which we're, we're working through today, you know, we, we, I mentioned that, that Fortune 50 company, they, they're kind of working on.

A P2P gaming platform. I see a lot of potential there, but the one I'm really excited about, and, you know, I, I won't name names, but we're kind of in the, doing the dance right now that, that kicking the tires, testing, testing the platform, benchmarking it, understanding just how much better we can be from a, from a price perspective versus, you know, the incumbents today.

It's this generative AI space. So, so all of. Websites that you go to, you know, with, with DLI two, with Urban AI and Stable Diffusion and you know, mid Journey, all of these different models where you, you know, prompt. Prompt,  

Julian: yeah.  

Bob: Prompted with some text. There is enormous amount of compute resources required behind that. You know, if there's one, if there's one thing, I I think that's true. Just circling back to your first point, it's a point in time. That's, that's where you introduce the element of timing and, and a huge part of that is luck over skill.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. What are the biggest challenges that Salad.com faces?

Bob: It's, it's, it's go to market. It's messaging. It's, it's, the analogy I always used is, is imagine if I was pitching Uber or Airbnb to you 15 years ago, a complete stranger's gonna pick you up in their car. A complete stranger's gonna stay in his spare bedroom. 99.9% of people would've said, no way. Forget about it.

Now they're commonplace. Right? So we, we have a, a real education challenge ahead of us here at Salad and, and I think that's, that's wrapped up in our go to market and, you know, we're, we're fortunate as a company, we've got plenty of runway and, and a rock solid product to, to, to figure that out and kind of hone that over time.

Julian: Yeah. What, what's particularly hard about your job?  

Bob: , I mean, Solo founder at this, at this point, kind of dealing with, with the uncertainty that the world is throwing at us. And that, that, yeah, that for me is, is You know, eased by the fact that we are really well capitalized right now, thanks to raising a round, you know, a series A round earlier in the year.

But I think the thing I struggled with the most is, is, you know, off the back of that round, the expectations that were set by me based on 2021, kind of extrapolating that out into the future. And then the mismatch between that and reality. And look, no one has a crystal ball. It's, it's, you know, some, you know, I like to, I like.

under promise, over deliver sort of thing. And, and we have not done that this, this year in terms of some of the metrics. So that, that's really tough. But beyond that, kind of something more, more relatable, I guess, the people, people, management's always, always a big challenge.  

Julian: Yeah. How do you manage people, I'm sure it sounds like you're remote working culture.

What are ways that you've seen, you know, that are successful ways to continue kind of a, a cohesive culture and a culture? Maybe driven towards goals or driven towards maybe a mission. What's your, whether it's philosophy or or actual strategy for managing people in a distributed team?

Bob: Yeah, there's, there's 2 or three things. I mean, the first hire the right people and then how do you define the right people? We anchor that in brand values. So we got three brand values that, you know, these, these are things from an engineering background. I never really applied much weight, much time, much thought towards, you know, brand values.

They feel very hand wavy. But now I find myself in, in this role that they're incredibly useful in terms of making sure you're making the right decisions around hiring people and then when bad hires happen when those happen, kind of anchoring that decision in, in those brand values. So that, that's number one.

And, and on a more practical level we are fully remote. There's kind of like a, there's a battery that gets discharged over time, just interacting through Zoom. So, so the way we kind of recharge the batteries Every six months we do a team offsite where, and we've kind of grown into this, it used to be quarterly where we'd actually, you know, do a hackathon and kind of get shit done while we're out working together.

Now it's morphed into every six months. We just spend a week hanging out together. Try not to think about work too much and really just focus on relationships and, and kind of, you know, recharging the batteries.  

Julian: I love that. I love that. It's, it's amazing that you, you came from a background where, you know, maybe it was, like you said, it was an under undervalued quality to have. You know, strong mission. But yeah, I feel like a lot of founders have echoed a similar point where it's, it's really helps in even the smallest day-to-day decision makings. It's like, you know, how do we make decisions? What are we making decisions on? And, and what's going actually motivate us? To make those decisions.

And it's typically around, you know, couple of, you know, values or, or mission statements or whatever people use to kind of, I, I think, you know pin a bullseye to the board. And, and, and, you know, hit a target on, on that. If everything goes well, what's the long term vision for Salad.com?  

Bob: To be the easiest, most trusted way to share compute .That, that's kind of a long term vision for us. I, you know, that's written by an engineer. I'm, I'm sure that'll morph over time, but, but really, it, it does anchor around trust and, and ease of use. You know, there's those two are, are so critical for us to be successful to introduce a marketplace or a sharing economy model. Within what is a massive industry that's only 10 or 15 years old.  

Julian: Yeah. If there was any, you know, learning or piece of advice you'd give to, you know, an early founder or founder who's in a similar position that you're in, what, what would that be? What, what either strategy or practical strategy or a philosophical strategy would you give to a founder who's either going through some similar experience or you know, another experience in a different industry

Bob: .It's gonna be a grind. You know, we kinda idolize these startups that go from zero to unicorn in a year. And we all think our idea is capable of , accomplishing the same type of rapid traction. But the reality is for most, it's gonna be a grind. And to get through the grind. You, you've, it's gotta be something you're super passionate about, right?

You gotta, you gotta, yeah. Bloody love what it is that you are building and the market that you're building in. And, and if you don't, there's a good chance that you are not gonna have that tenacity to get up and deal with. You know, the tough times that are kind of inevitable for, for most startups. So you gotta, you gotta be, and I think, you know, a lot of VCs talk about this.

You gotta be truly passionate about what it is you're building. Cause that's the only way you're gonna make it.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I would like to ask this question, one for my own selfish research, but also for my audience as well. What, whether early in your career or now, what books or people have influenced you?

Bob: Yeah. You know, I, I've been asked this question before and I always, I always come up blank. I'm . I'm not great at answering this question to, to be honest, Julia, it's, it's like the one question I think more recently. You know, this is, this is back when politics were really starting to, to, to get into the workplace in a big way.

What Brian Armstrong did at Coinbase I think was, was huge for me. Really, really impactful. Really influential. And and so, so yeah, that's kind of my answer there. But I'm, I'm atypical in the sense that, you know, you know, I don't have, a. Quick answer on that one. It's, it's yeah, there's no, there's no reading list I can give.

Julian: Yeah, no, no worries. Is there, is there anything that I didn't ask you that I should have or that you wish I did?

Bob: No, Julian, I think, I mean, I mean the, the question around that, this, what, what skill does a founder. I think is the question. And then the point you made before around what that other founder said, which is product market fit is timing. That's, I mean, that's another huge component that I think about.

Yeah. Between how much is skill versus how much is luck. There's, it's, it's a spectrum and there's always. You know, both are ingredients and, and so getting timing, being lucky with timing is, is just as important. So, no, I think, I mean, those are the two big things that, that are coming here and dear to me.

Julian: Yeah. Well, Bob, I always like to give my, my founders and, and my guests a chance and opportunity to let us know where we can support them. So give, give me your plugs. Where, what website are you on? Where are your Twitters, your Discord channels? Where can we be part of the mission and. If we're your ideal customer profile, where can we be involved and, and get involved in the Salad.com company and platform.  

Bob: So you can email me bob@salad.com if any of you are interested in. Kicking the tires of a fully managed container service. That is what's on my mind at the moment. Salad.com is where you'll learn more about, you know, our product, who we are, what we do, what we offer and of course how we're better than, than the incumbents. So if anyone's a huge consumer of compute, you know, I'd love to hear from you .  

Julian: Love that. Love that. Well, I hope you enjoyed yourself, Bob, and, and thank you so much for being on the podcast. I really enjoyed the conversation. I can't wait to share with everyone.  

Bob: Likewise. Thanks Julian.  

Julian: Of course.