August 23, 2022

Arup Roy-Burman, MD, Founder & CEO of Elemeno Health

Arup Roy-Burman MD, Founder & CEO of Elemeno Health, a mobile-friendly just-in-time training and support solution for frontline healthcare teams. Elemeno has built a “playbook in your pocket” for nurses, which empowers them enhance patient care and execute their day-to-day tasks more efficiently. The “playbook” includes easily digestible content that can be customized by individual hospital departments. Its use has been associated with increased nurse satisfaction and a decrease in turnover by up to 50%. Improved consistency of care has resulted in decreased medical errors and hospital-acquired conditions by up to 75%.

Arup has 25 years experience in caring for the critically ill and keenly appreciates the importance of frontline teams (nurses, doctors, and ancillary staff) to patient outcomes. He is an Associate Professor at UCSF Benioff Children’s Hospital, where he has served as ICU Medical Director, and Director of Transport & Access. Arup is also past Director of the Transdisciplinary Immersion in Global Health Research and Education (TIGRE) program in Honduras (70,000+ patient-visits), and has served on the Board of Directors of 501(c)3 Global Healing. He is a graduate of UC Berkeley (BA), UCSF (MD), and Stanford (Pediatric Residency).

Episode Transcript

Julian: Hey everyone. Thank you for joining the behind company lines podcast. Today, we have Arup Roy Berman, physician, entrepreneur co-founder and CEO of Elemeno health. Elemeno health is a software company that empowers frontline workers. Arup thank you so much for joining today and nobody saw this prior, but I'm just gonna give myself away.

Julian: I had the hardest time with your. We'll have some outtakes outtakes there. But before we dive into what you're doing now, Elemeno health, I would love to learn a little bit more about what you were doing before you started Elemeno health and becoming a wide Combinator alum yourself. 

Arup: Yeah.

Arup: So before starting Elemeno, I spent 20 years in clinical practice working in pediatric critical care. So in the pediatric ICU, and that took me through a lot of the big. Hospitals here in the bay area, Stanford U C S F Kaiser children's Oakland, and really had the privilege of working with fantastic teams.

Arup: Yeah. Dedicated, hardworking, frontline nurses, techs, residents, all working together to help to save lives of. So that's what I used to do. And what I still do a little bit of and I was medical director of the ICU at U C S F Benioff. Children's San Francisco. What, and for me, 

Julian: yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Julian: No, no, I was gonna say, I was gonna say, it's interesting. You don't see a lot of physician entrepreneurs, which I think you have one of the coolest titles of any of the founders that I have on the. There's others that have cool titles, I promise. But you know, as a physician and an entrepreneur, where, where did this culmination, I'm sure there was some curiosity, some level of insight that you have that, that maybe gives you a little bit of an edge, but yeah.

Julian: What, what was the inspiration for starting the company? You know, being, being a physician and then moving into entrepreneurship and, and tech. Well, 

Arup: you know, the inspiration actually goes way back. When you know, I was like four years. My little sister was born mm-hmm and she had congenital heart disease.

Arup: Something was very treatable then. And when I was in second grade, she went to the operating room for what should have been a simple surgery. There was a mistake made in the operating room and she died in the, or that was my first experience with the medical error. And it was my inspiration to go into medicine.

Arup: Mm-hmm to go into pediatrics, to go into critical care and take care of children like her. But in that career that took me through so many wonderful top rated institutions. I continued to see children dying from preventable mistakes, mistakes made by well intentioned, hardworking, well educated staff mm-hmm and simply pull the information they needed when they needed it.

Arup: And we will go back on these types of events and it would happen. Not my department across the whole hospital. Yeah. Yeah. We looked back on native safety events and it was that hospital said, yeah, we know this stuff. Yeah. We know this is an organization, but our front lines can't remember it because the sheer volume of so many things that are changing so much, we've seen 'em more than ever in COVID.

Arup: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we asked the question of why is it in the consumer space that technologies like this mobile and otherwise. Are the great enablers. Right? Right. They connect us yeah. Yeah. This is what we need when we need it. Right. Why can't we have those, you know, privileges in healthcare where the stakes are so much higher.

Arup: Yeah. That was the inspiration to make this happen. 

Julian: Yeah. So it sounds like which is, which is a bizarre, and thank you for sharing that story. Is, is it, is it, do you see that it's surely just like the, the quickness of the information or the, the, like having it kind of stored and memorized, or is it like both?

Julian: What, what do you think is like one of the main issues? 

Arup: So you know, we, as a patient, you go into healthcare, you expect not just your doctors, but the nurses and everybody to know everything. Right. But that's impossible. Yeah. It's impossible. There are so much, and. It's constantly changing. Yeah. And for those frontline staff, when they can't stay on top of it all, yeah.

Arup: One, you have to make information accessible. Yeah. But nobody wants to read 15 pages in the moment. Right. You know, find that policy on something. It doesn't help me when I'm trying to take care of the patient right here right now. Yeah. Yeah. You have to also transform that inform. To make it digestible in the moment you were talking at the beginning about, you know, Hey, this podcast bite size nuggets that go to people are the TikTok videos that you create.

Arup: Yeah. People want something short sweetened to the point. And that's where we come in. We help to transform that organizational knowledge into those bite size nuggets that are not just accessible in the moment, but digestible 

Julian: in. Yeah. Describe for the audience, what, what you categorize as frontline staff and how critical it is for them to receive this immediate information.

Julian: Yeah. 

Arup: So I'll, I'll take the frontline staff and I'll call them as frontline teams, teams. You know, when we think about healthcare or the lay public thinks about healthcare, they often think of the diad of the doctor and the patient. Right. But what they forget in there is that in between who's actually delivering the bulk of that.

Arup: the biggest group is nurses. Right. But there's all kinds of ancillary staff. There's the respiratory therapist. There's the x-ray therapist. There's the physical therapist. Yeah. All of these other people that are delivering the care and technology is forgotten about supporting them. Mm-hmm , that's where we come in.

Arup: And when you look at healthcare, healthcare is really a team. Yeah, it is position players, different professions working together to get the win. And I'll use an analogy of I'll take here a sports analogy. Mm-hmm . If we take, for example, football in football, when we think about the sport, there is a rule book.

Arup: How many people have ever read that rule book? Very 

Julian: few. Almost nobody. Yeah. Those who do have, have a leg, a leg ahead of the game, right? 

Arup: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But there's, there's, there's a rule book. Mm-hmm and then you've got the locker room where you've got the X's and the O's right. Those are the training.

Arup: They've given you some more about the, the, the, what strategy, little bit of the, how to do it. Right, right. But it is non it's often in one ear now, the other. And what do they care about most is when they're in the. Somebody's looking down at that little thing on their wrist, right? What's the play that we're writing right now, a play that is customized to your teammates, to your opponent and the specific field you're on today.

Arup: Yeah. Healthcare is really no different. We have policies and procedures that govern mm-hmm that are indigestible in the moment. Mm-hmm there are staff meetings that are disconnected in one ear and out the other mm-hmm what they did is the playbook in the moment. Yeah, there is no playbook. Wow. It's a mess.

Arup: Binders, flyers. Yeah. Posters putting things above the toilet. In the bathroom. Yeah. throwing things at your SharePoint on the internet. And in desperation, people go into Google and search and God knows what they're gonna. 

Julian: do you think that's the, is it, is it part of the, you know, you make this playbook analogy, is it part of the playbook or is it knowing the situation?

Julian: Because I know from what you said, you know, doctors and nurses, they, they know the players, they, they have this information at their disposal. It's about using it. Do you, do you feel that it's more, you know, lack of playbook or lack of knowing the 

Arup: situation? I think they can know the situation. So it's the know that they can start to gauge what the situation is.

Arup: Yeah. It's like, Now, what do I need to do? And whoa, how do I actually do it? How to do it is gonna be depended on my own specific equipment. My own specific supplies. Yeah. Yeah. You know, my own specific patient population and resources. Mm-hmm , that's where hyper, hyper localization really comes in. Mm-hmm it's not about give me the high level breast practice guideline.

Arup: Yeah. I need to actually make. actionable. Right. I need to actually do it. And that's, that's the problem in the moment. How am I accessing this special kind of IV mm-hmm how am I rolling out this device that I haven't used in two months? Right, right. You know how I primed this circuit or mm-hmm , you know, GE monkeypox is here.

Arup: Where am I supposed to go to place that order? Yeah. That type of information in the moment. That's what I need. 

Julian: So, so does element that kind of encompass not only resources, but knowledge and, you know, notes and, and kinda information on specific patients, where, where does it cover in this broad umbrella of so 

Arup: practice, if, if you think about the electronic healthcare record.

Arup: Yeah. That is a patient centered record of what we have done. Mm-hmm and. To do it is all around the patient. And that means there's all kinds of firewalls and security all around that. Right? Yeah. And we seeo like a yin and a yang mm-hmm , you've got the EHR here and then you've GoTo, which is a staff centered platform.

Arup: Mm-hmm of how to actually do it. We're about ease of access. We're about transparency of information. So the nurse can see what the doctor's gonna do, or the, the nurse can see what the tech is gonna do, how you can see the play before the play actually has to unfold. Yeah. How you as a teammate, who's not directly caring for that patient can see how I can support my other teammates to get the bigger picture job done.

Arup: Yeah. So because of. We are about lightweight. We're about mobile. Mm-hmm we don't need all the security around us. It gives you seamless access to information. Mm-hmm whether you're at the bedside doing care, or you're sitting on your own bed at home thinking. Yeah, man, did I do that? Right? Yeah. That's the teaching moment to be able to see that.

Julian: Wow. So, so you, you've not only given doctors the abilities and nurses, the abilities. Help the patient, you know, in, in the moment and in these certain situations and while they're caring for them, but even offsite. Right. And, and kind of taking that information. Yeah. Wow. I mean that, that's, that's impressive.

Julian: I feel I had a certain situation you know, long story short, I had an appendicitis and it took me quite a bit of time, like three visits to actually get you know, into surgery. And then when the surgery happened, it was in emergency surgery cuz my appendix had bursted. And it, and it seemed as though we were starting at, at zero every time he went into the, the office and you know, trying to get the care and waiting for somebody, it's just like, you know, it it's such.

Julian: I, I, I feel like when it runs, well, it runs so smoothly and efficiency efficiently, excuse me. But when it doesn't, there's all these kind of like speed bumps into getting the service you need. And it, and like you said, it seems as though these people are very well intentioned. They know the information at hand, but it's the access and the quickness of communication.

Julian: That's the biggest leap. And you mentioned, you mentioned, you know, COVID and with, you know, monkey pot kind of being something that's, that's now very prevalent and a little scary for you know, those who are aware of it. What, what difference have you seen element O on, on kind of helping with these caring and care and services during these pandemic times?

Arup: Yeah. So if we look at an example, say U C S F the emergency department at Panasas the main campus mm-hmm is one of our. And for them when COVID was at its peak, mm-hmm information was changing hour by hour. Yeah. And if you had to use a legacy communication system, either you're emailing people, constant blast, and who looks at all of the nobody, or if you're through it, mm-hmm, open up a ticket.

Arup: Wait, somebody changes it in some central location and you have to wait until, you know, you're back on campus that you can get behind the firewall and. Wow. But instead they were able to leverage Elemeno so that the director could directly what's the latest mm-hmm . And even at the peak pandemic, people would look in multiple times during their shift to see what has changed.

Arup: Yeah. What do I need to know right now? What's most current. Yeah. And there's another fine twist to this. Is that any institution, if they would like they can make their operationalized place shareable. Yeah. Shareable. So that the team leaders. The directors in other hospitals can look at it and can see, oh, I love how Julian's doing this in his hospital.

Arup: Yeah. Julian's running an ed, just like me. He's got the same problems I've got. I'm gonna take that. Yeah. And I'm gonna tweak that one step to really make it specific to my house. Yeah, and then I'm gonna go. So we start to drive a democratization of knowledge yeah. And allow them to share with each other.

Arup: So we get the strength of the community, right. Rather than each one of us reinventing the wheel. I love that. 

Julian: It's a it's it's so fascinating. You know, when, when capture was first invented, which is, you know, when you do the, where's the airplane in this image, you know, and you select to, to verify information and all of it is just community driven, right?

Julian: How many people what was percentage of individuals selected these images in these boxes versus another pool of people? And, you know, it's all by consensus. So this idea of like community information and learning. It's been done before and it continues to be extremely relevant moving forward. But one thing that you mentioned about, you know, kind of the doctor and the nurse's experience is being able to do it at home.

Julian: Like how, how, how do you feel you know, the life like the life experience and also you know, professional experience has changed for these doctors and nurses now having this information to take back with them and not having to be so tied to one campus, to like communicate with other individuals, how has that changed?

Arup: so for them, it's about, you know, give me the information when I want it. Yeah. You know, that teaching moment can happen anywhere and it can happen at work. It can happen in transit. It can happen at home. Yeah. And when we look at our social life or the consumer life, it's about give me what I need when I want it.

Arup: Yeah. So we want, I think, same, same level. They should have the same level of expectation, same level of service in healthcare, where again, the risks are so much more, so that's been a. Satisfy for our clients. Yeah. And it's allowed them to also do their jobs better because yeah. Then even before you come into work, you can understand what you're going to see.

Arup: Right. What's the environment like now, so what you can expect. Right. And so that ability for the manager is not forcing their staff to look at this somewhere else, but they're making it available. Yeah. So whether Julian, you gotta see this when you walk in the door at work or if you wanna see. On your device when you're ready for it at home.

Arup: Yeah. Fantastic. People have been able to take even some of the the skills days, like big, intense trainings that used to be mm-hmm mm-hmm everybody get in a room and we're gonna give you all this stuff at once and you gotta sit through the process. Well, they were able to chop that up and deliver that in element.

Arup: Yeah, you can consume bite size chunks whenever you want, wherever you want. And then the beauty is, is that you've learned it one way. Mm-hmm six months later when you have to do it, it's right there at your fingertips again. Yeah. To pull it in. 

Julian: I love the idea of, of you, you know, getting the information and accessing it when you can, because I, I, you know, there's countless times.

Julian: That you're not ready to digest information where, you know, you're either your mind's waking up or you're focused on something else and you can't like switch in terms of your attention span and being able to do it in commute. And having that access, I think is just, you know, I, I think it breeds more readiness in a lot of, you know, situations You know, and, and moving kind of into the, the discussion about element and how it's impacted you know, different companies and businesses and, and, you know, healthcare practices, I guess.

Julian: Where, what kind of traction are you seeing now? Tell, tell me a little bit more about the traction Thato has within healthcare and, and you know, overall in the community. Yeah. So 

Arup: we are now in eight states. We're looking to launch in our ninth state a little bit later on this month. and then in our 10th state coming up next month.

Arup: Wow. We've had percent client retention. Our clients are all happy. Yeah. And they are renewing. And then we've got model where we start out and we approve it in one department. Mm-hmm show success there and then grow it out there. More departments ultimately to. So we've got clients that are at the level of individual clinics or individual departments.

Arup: And we have clients at the level of enterprise. Yeah. Well, hospitals are our biggest cohort of clients. Mm-hmm we also have clients who are growing in ambulatory. That means in outpatient. Yeah. And also in that post acute care, which means empowering the folks in skilled nursing and home care and in hospice.

Arup: Yeah. Where the workers. Even more sparse, you can't turn around and ask someone next to you. You know, you really need a digitized support there mm-hmm and then we've even on the little more kind of the fringe, one of our biggest clients they are dealing with the homeless population in this county that we're serving.

Arup: We've been able to help empower the community healthcare worker mm-hmm so that they can access the resources from behavioral health and substance abuse and from home services and legal services and bring those resources and connect those resources to the homeless client when they. So making the county more efficient in being able to support those who are in the greatest need.

Julian: That's incredible. I mean, the, the, I feel like the web kind of continues and network continues to grow and grow to support individuals, which is amazing to, to see because, you know, like you said, there's just so many resources that just have the biggest issue of communication. And you see it in your day to day life when you're trying to set up for your own healthcare insurance services.

Julian: Right. Especially if you're like me, who, who works for the. And that access is just, so I think it's necessar necessary, especially during times where you can't get to places, people are working or have three jobs that they're involved in. So it's amazing to see that, you know, there's, there's a lot of traction within not only hospitals, but it's becoming more localized in the community.

Julian: What are the biggest risks Thato faces today? 

Arup: Biggest risk. So we are the first mover in the space. And. we're a solution built from the bottom up mm-hmm , you know, this was really built by doctors, nurses, and staff who were feeling this pain mm-hmm and saw a need for the solution. And so that's you know how we started now we've got venture backing, allowing us to accelerate our growth.

Arup: Yeah. At some point, others are gonna say that, Hey, there's an opportunity here. Right. And we wanna come and compete. what's our biggest concern right now is drive that growth as fast as possible. Yeah. and 

Julian: have as many people adopt it. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's awesome. You mentioned to me earlier 

Arup: that, you know, important piece of that with that adoption we're, you know, if you took all that we know in healthcare right now, mm-hmm , if we.

Arup: invent or discover a single new thing. If we simply applied the knowledge that we have, mm-hmm everybody's care would be ahead by leaps and bounds, going back to your appendicitis story. Yeah. Yeah. You know, first in the first place you should have had, you know, that care that you needed yeah. Ahead of time.

Arup: And where we come in is that we take the knowledge that the department has. We make it action. We help those managers to implement their practices. And we make, then those managers, the heroes in their story. Yeah. We help them get the information to their front lines. So the front lines can take better care of their patients, get the outcomes that they want.

Arup: And if you look at it that way from technology, it is not about us as mano. The story is about our clients. Yeah. We are helping our clients to. Yeah. And if we can drive that, that's really the success that we wanna see because these people are all heroes and we want to make them make it known to everyone else.

Arup: Yeah. That they are the heroes. Yeah. 

Julian: I love that. I love that. Yeah. No, I, I, I love that in terms of just like, I think a lot of founders from what I've been, who I've been talking with and even my own experience, it's like, you, you let the, the, the client and the customer drive your. Because they need to be happy.

Julian: They need to be satisfied. They need to be enabled to do what they do best in the most efficient way possible. So how do you go about like iterating on, you know, new features and, and new products or, or expanding the, the the reach of element within its current customer base? How do you go about that thought process and that strategy?

Julian: Building and I'm sure the building never stops. Right. It continues until forever. It seems like. But that's part of the fun of it, but how do you go about thinking about, you know, how to best enable your customer moving forward? So, 

Arup: We like the idea of what we call new power mm-hmm . Old power is the historic structure of top down, you know, from the king to the nobility, to the.

Arup: That's been historic corporate America. Mm-hmm , that's been historic academia, the chancellor, the Dean, the chairs, and, you know, and taking it on down that way in those models, information passes down to the front lines and the front lines are simply passive consumers of information. Yeah. The nurses just taking in the orders.

Arup: Yeah. New power is the idea of listening to those users. Yeah. And asking them not just to. But to help, to produce information yeah. To share information, to rate information. Yeah. And so important to us in our product is getting that feedback of the front lines, the feedback built into the product. What do you want, what do you need?

Arup: And so we help the managers to deliver that from a content standpoint. Similarly, we listen to them for what their needs are, and we bring that back to our product team, through our client. Yeah. So we have continued to evolve our product over time. Yeah. To be able to apply to more and more of the pain points of our clients.

Arup: So that feedback loop, whether it's at the level of the department, for the manager and their team mm-hmm , or it's at the level of our product is really key to us. Yeah. And the other piece for us, you know, when I talk about, we wanna make these stars, really the heroes in their stories, mm-hmm much of our growth has been through word of.

Arup: And it's about like what we're doing on this podcast, but we have the opportunities where our clients are able to speak. Yeah. And we wanna be able to promote that because Julian, if you're an ICU manager in one hospital and I'm an ICU manager in another hospital, we may never have met before. We never see each other because we're in our own siloed organizations.

Arup: Yeah. But when we're able to share our stories or maybe even share some of our operationalized practices, mm-hmm , we suddenly. Hey, we've got a lot of stuff alike. Yeah. How can we help each other? And that's the network that we want to be able to promote. I love 

Julian: that. I, I've never heard of the old power versus new power concept.

Julian: And, and I I'm fascinated by that because I think a lot of companies are adopting that and in different ways. And I think, you know, one of the ways I I've talked about recently is like community. And it's that shared information through that community resource that allows you to iterate, to take feedback, to make it actionable.

Julian: I think one thing, a lot of companies are moving towards. Figuring out how to take on a certain situation as a team and sharing that success in that the overall outcome is a reflection of every individual part. And it really works. I think, well, not, not, not even just in, you know, SAS and those typical platforms, but even in, in healthcare and finance, I mean, it really brought strokes allows.

Julian: Consumers or people or patients to get the, you know, the, the, the care or attention that they need and overall just drives success, you know? And I, I don't know. I, I, I mentioned this on the last, last podcast, but, you know, it seems like the industry's going away from these unicorn companies where it's like very much, you know, one size fits all.

Julian: You know, if you can't fit within this box, then maybe this, you know, this resource isn't for you versus companies who are more focused on fitting their resource. Their and their, and their product around their, their customer. And I just see so much success coming from that. And just in terms of the success and, and where the direction OFO is going, where what's the long term vision for the company, what, what's the overall goal or what, what drives you every day to to, to continue doing what you're doing?

Arup: Well, you know, when we've seen the results that our clients have decreased medical errors, preventable deaths. Yeah. Avoided. Yeah. Improved outcomes for patients. That's extremely gratifying, especially for me as a doctor. Yeah. Is that, you know, for me, the greatest thrill had always been, Hey, you're in the ICU.

Arup: You saved somebody's life. Wow. Yeah. But when we started developing the solution, we found it was a solution that was too important, not to scale. Yeah. And if we can enable more and more people to deliver better care to their patients, that's what brings 'em to work every day. yeah. That way. Yeah. Awesome.

Arup: And, and, you know, I've spent a lot of time in global health as well. Mm-hmm working in developing countries about, you know, how can we improve their infrastructure? There have been many hospitals that have been to abroad where they don't have computers. They don't have electronic health record.

Arup: Yeah. they all have this. Yeah. Everybody's got a phone. Yeah. And, you know, I talked about that sharing of practices. My big picture vision is that you take these operationalized best practices. Mm-hmm . And you're able to share that with those that are resource rich to those that are resource constrained.

Arup: Yeah. Help everybody in this community, outside of the borders of our country creates something worldwide where we are the go-to network. For operationalized best practices. Yeah. And that can allow us to radically reduce medical errors and improve patient safety. Yeah. And at the end of the day, empower every healthcare professional to deliver the best care possible.

Arup: To every life they touch, that's where we want 

Julian: to be. I love that. That's, that's incredible. I think that's a, that's a very courageous mission and I think it's, it sounds like it's working extremely well. And, and again, I, I just love the idea of being able to empower people to do what they do best. I mean, it it's like, it's not, it's not necessarily, it is a solution.

Julian: Right. And, and, but the solution in essence just helps people communicate with others and kind of create this big brain and symbiotic relationship within. Yeah, within these within these practices and these teams. And I love the team aspect because it just, yeah, I think it, it communicates across so many different industries, so many different technologies, but ultimately it is like, you know, the, what is the God, what is the old saying?

Julian: It's like, One smart person is not as smart as three dumb people or something like that. I don't know if you've heard this saying, but I've, I've heard that in the past. And but it's true. It's it's I hear where you're going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's the culmination of all that information that 

Arup: really kind of, everybody brings some something to the table.

Arup: Yeah. You know what every institution. Every one of your staff, there's something that they do really well. Yeah. And if you can take what they do well and amplify that and share that with others collectively, you're all gonna step 

Julian: up. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love to ask this bonus question, especially with, with founders having such diverse backgrounds.

Julian: But what books are people have influenced you the most? 

Arup: That would go back to where we first started. Mm-hmm a tool Gand wrote the checklist. It's a wonderful read. Mm-hmm pretty short read. But it draws the analogy between healthcare and the airline industry. Interesting about how both of these are taking the patient or the passenger mm-hmm on a journey.

Arup: Mm-hmm, from one point to another, through a very high risk environment and need to be able to make that journey safe. Yeah. And that the way that the airline industry has done. Is by standardizing processes. Mm-hmm but then also giving people that bite-sized information in the moment, the checklist in the moment.

Arup: Yeah. That the pilot checks. All of it is for routine work. Right. But there's other, that is for high risk work. Yeah. When something's going wrong, what do I need to do right now? Don't gimme the book. Right? Give me something straight. And to the point and the airline industry has moved by leaps and bounds.

Arup: Yeah. It's remarkably safe. It's amazing. When you step back and think of how many millions of people are moving. Right. Right. All the time. Yeah. Say what we can learn from there in healthcare, where there are so many parallels. Our mission is help to actually realize some of the points that were brought up in that 

Julian: book origin.

Julian: I love that. No, that's man. I, I feel like I learned something to take selfishly. I asked that question for myself to, to get some research materials to reading material, but yeah, the standardized checklist, I think is just such a, such a, you know, important message for so many founders and entrepreneurs, just to make things simple, actionable, and something that you can communicate to almost every individual on your org and it, and it does work in healthcare.

Julian: It works in you know, airlines and it works in kind of everyday life, too. Aro, thank you so much for joining the show. I really appreciate the insights and, and the interesting background and love the mission Thato is moving towards in this, you know, helping you know, people get the care that they need and helping teams kind of work together to improve their practices overall.

Julian: Where can we find you? Where can we support you? Give us your, your blurb, where are your socials? How can we, how can we become a part and spread the message in. 

Arup: so we are Elemeno So And that comes from our core values. EL is to elevate quality. EM is to empower the front lines with knowledge and EN is to engage as an interprofessional team.

Arup: You'll also find us on Instagram on LinkedIn and on Facebook and on Twitter.

Julian: I love it. Well, we'll add all that to our, to our post. Once we, you know send out this, this episode blast, but again, thank you so much for spending time here. I really appreciate the story and best of luck with, with everything with Elemeno..

Arup: Thanks a lot, Julian. Appreciate it. 

Julian: Yep.

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