Julian: Hey everyone. Thank you so much for joining the Behind Company Lines podcast. Today we have Antoine Castel, co-founder of MetaEngine. MetaEngine is enabling the Metaverse, providing Gamefi devs with the tools to build the next metaverse with more efficient, cheaper, and unified technology. Antron, I'm so excited to chat with you, especially because I think we, people who aren't within the gaming industry, I feel like there's two different camps, maybe some people in the middle who know a lot about kind of where gaming is going and, and its evolution and, and how it's really coming down to the gamers and, and their skill sets to develop and less kind of, centralized in these big gaming companies.

But it's exciting not only about what, what kind of creativity is gonna come about of it, but also the technology that's gonna be incorporated in it that is, is kind of intertwined in, in other technologies as well. But before we get into all that good stuff, I know you spent some time in investment banking and then you obviously finance and crypto, and then now in the gaming world, In your past experience, how much time did you spend on your job and how much time did you spend gaming?

What, what kind of hours per days were you clocking in ?  

Antoine: Well, first of all, thank you for having me, Julian. Of course that's an honor. Well, when I was, when I was working in investment banking, for sure, not a lot of time gaming you clock in many, many hours. From Monday, Monday to Sunday, I was living in, in Japan for my first.

Proper job experience working for a big French bank. So, yeah, when I was there, I treated myself for Christmas and bought a PS three, but everything was in Japanese, so it was a bit of a bummer. Oh, no, . Yeah, but yeah, I started. Started with with with supers and then evolved more into, well, PC gaming over the course of the past few years.

So I tried to keep, I tried to keep yeah, active on gaming. But to be honest, I just bought, I was lucky enough to get a PS five before Christmas, and I played less than an hour, so, Oh, that's not good. Yeah. But I still play actively counterstrike, PubG kind of stuff to switch off at the end of the day, a very long day.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And, and for people who don't know what's the difference between console gaming and PC gaming? What are the limitations to both? And also what are the benefits to both?  

Antoine: Yeah. So, I'd say console gaming , is more fair to the players, especially when it's competitive, but also more accessible.

You have less buttons to press. It's, it's less challenging. Everybody has the same hardware. The only difference is your tv. But the controller is always the same. So, I think most initially better games were made for console because you had a bigger, bigger audience and over time. Pc what we call PC master race took over and but the numbers on cons is still huge because you have all the kids.

Yeah. Don't you, you, you ask when you ask your parents to buy very expensive computer that will be outdated in five years. Or even in two, that's a bit silly. And, and you can get a very powerful computer for today for $500 you can get a PS five and it's a supercomputer, and it won't be outdated in five years.

When they, when we, when they change technology and they will get a new one, every game will still be working fine on it. Every new release will be working fine on it, even in five years because they keep optimizing So. Maybe a sounder investment whether pc, so, yeah, I, I, I think it's more accessible, but PC is more for professional.

I, I, I think more for professionals when you build skills and and you have a lot more experiences. it is also a bit more expensive to develop for console because you have to have a developer kit specific for a PlayStation whatever, whatever platform Nintendo is having or is going to have.

Yeah, so, it's, it's it's really a bit more expensive, but also bigger audience and easier to access because that's just. one Machine. You have people, you can access them more efficiently. You have just one publisher in there. So it's a lot easier.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And how large is the gaming community today? I, I think a lot of people underestimate how many people are gaming and even to a small degree, but also those who are more seriously doing it.  

Antoine: I think it's pretty large. I think the numbers is around 2 billion people around the world that are actually gaming. Mobile has brought up so many people.

If you look , at Southeast Asia and Asia in general where, well, the, the the, the local buying power does not allow you to buy a a thousand dollars pc or, or $500. PS five. You can always get a crappy a crappy Android phone, smartphone. We can still, yeah, smartphone where you can still.

Good amount of stuff. Not necessarily Pepsi Mobile or here's a cat not necessarily Pepsi Mobile, but but many, many games and, and get a, get, get to get a taste of it a little bit with ton of simulators available on Android. That, that's super useful. That's super cool. So, I think it brought, it brought a huge amount of people that are discovering meaning with that.

Julian: Yeah. for, the metaverse is it focusing on the different I, I would say platforms that are that are used for gaming, say mobile console pc or is it more hyper-focused in one particular area? And and why is that?  

Antoine: I think the number one question would be to ask what is the metaverse?

Right? Yeah. Is it, is it just a, is it just NFTs associated with a, with a. Or is it a game associated with a movie that is kind of, enhancing the experience and, and, and taking it to some other places, plus a website, plus a VR experience, plus an attraction in Disneyland, whatever is this, metaverse Is this, so the the the, our Definition, of Metaverse is a network of infinite amount of different experiences games.

3D experiences that are happening in 3D virtual environment that are all inter interconnected. If they're not interconnected, it's not metaverse, it's multiverse and it's segregated between all those verses. So our motto is, is, is trying to connect, bring interoperability between those worlds. So, and, and between platforms, and between games, between people and between all those different experiences that you should be able to access once you switch on your, your device, whatever it is, if it is vr, if it is a pc, if it is a a console, you should be able to jump from one to the other regardless. .  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And, and right now, or I guess in the recent past, how advanced has the ability for people and gamers to actually develop their own games, and how has it improved in the recent years?

That is going to create a huge influence, impact into, meta, the metaverse kind of whole, whole push for, for a really a fully immersed gaming experience.  

Antoine: Yeah. The idea of a metaverse also is that it's not gonna be built by one company, right? Yeah. It's not the dystopia of of ready player one or other or a free guy.

Those two movies that are kind of dystopian, it should not be that. Yeah. And also it's huge amount of content to. , it cannot be built by one company. Like, Instagram is not bringing anything. People who are contributing to build that thing. So it should be made easier to build those, those multiple experiences.

So, the, the the, you have many, many attempts at building sandboxes that allow people to create. kind of no-code approach. Robla. Roblox allows you to build with code as well with our engine. Yeah. Which is cool. Yeah, it's still limited. It's technically limited because it's not full-blown game engine.

It's fairly limited what you have access to, but it's still super cool. Minecraft was huge success. It's the number one game game played in the world before te. So it's, it's huge. Huge following built by one guy, and that just gave the tool to everybody. Okay. Go play. Yeah, go play with it.

Then took over by, by Microsoft. But still one guy. Yeah. Gave the tools to everybody. Okay. Have play with it. And we are, I don't know how many years after the release. So yeah we, you see those experiences, those games that have purpose or no purpose, really. Minecraft didn't have any purpose.

Like there was no story at the beginning. Uh uh. Try to enable people to build their own stuff and assemble some small pieces, create their own world, their own version of the world, a copy of the world whatever. And that's really super cool to see that empowerment given to, to to also younger generations who are getting a taste of what it takes to make a game.

And it's super hard, I can tell you that. It's not easy. That's why it's expensive. That's why so many things. Even before being finished. So, it's it's empowering younger generations with tools that are accessible, that are interesting, that are collaborative, that are that, that bring their creativity forward is great.

And also a super cool career path that you want to explore. Definitely. Yeah, I can tell you that, sorry to interrupt. When I was young, I can, I can tell you that my parents were really not interested in me pursuing a career, in making games. Fuck no. Sorry for cursing . No way. No way. Today. Well, what is the future?

Is this going to be in those, in those virtual experiences? And that has to be built by game developers.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. And it, it's, it's crazy cuz gaming gets to a lot of root of, of things that we enjoy. Not only challenge and, and kind of figuring out critical thinking skills, going through different questions, things like that.

And, and also kind of, reaction and, and very visceral humanistic emotions and feelings of, of winning and, and cooperation and collaboration. It kind of takes it into a virtual. Outside of doing it physically, which, which I think enhances the experience a lot. How does crypto and how does blockchain technology, you mentioned, one, one game one, one scenario where blockchain's involved is with NFTs and another one where it's kind of critical to the infrastructure of the game.

Where does technology in terms of blockchain. Where, how is it involved with new game development and what are some ways that it'll give kind of new access and, and new features to gaming that we haven't seen before? Or is it just gonna kind of recreate the old stuff with new technology?

Antoine: So, the obvious first answer would be whatever has been done so far with, with blockchain technology. So, basically when you look at the game, you have a design. Economy. Mm-hmm. mechanics. So economy is not necessarily, is not necessary because if it's a solo game, who cares about the economy, right?

Right. But the innovative design blockchain does not have much to do with it. Maybe with owning the design, if you build collaboratively, how do you track ownership of things? At Metaline we're building some tools to track, be able to track ownership. That's pretty interesting.

Telling stories. Well, how do you tell stories? Who is telling the story? Who, whose story is it? Is, is it? . So if it is collaborative, it's, if it is massive amount of different experiences, well my story, I should be able to own it. I should be able to, I should be able to make money out of that, or at least claim it is mine or sell it to somebody else or assemble it with somebody else's story.

Economy is kind of obvious. Crypto was, was and Bitcoin was kind of created to answer the financial crisis of two. 2008 and kind of counter power and a store of value. But, and then, the mechanics do, can you add mechanics based on blockchain? That would be super cool.

That, that's really interesting. But the, the the idea is really, I think the, the, the core should be ownership because if you are building that many, that many experie. Ownership is key. So there's a, there's that legend open legend that says Vitalik created Ethereum because because he got the banhammer the Nerf hammer on one of his items and Wow.

And he was super pissed. How come somebody can, can say, my stuff is not worth anything today? Well, sorry, that's what a game developer can do. But if you own this, yeah. If you own that item and it, it holds, Forever. It should be, it should be it, it should be understood and, and acknowledged by the consensus and not by yourself.

Yeah. So it's also a different way of making games. If you've, if you look at how many games are made on console, compare it to how many games are made on, on phones. It's a different universe. Making games on phones is super fast. You can make one within a week. It'll look bad, will be terrible. But the mechanics, you can try, you can ab test some stuff.

Yeah, I think we are looking at a new way. We're trying to look at Metaverses, I think going that way, trying to look at new ways of making games, iterating cuz making one AAA game cost hundreds of millions of dollars. And, and, and you are served the same story or different story, but. Packaging. Same thing, same license over time.

All over. Over time there's not a lot of innovation and if you, if you are able to gather a team, assemble a team, split the ownership at the beginning and work on it and collaboratively build your own experiences, sell those experiences, or give access for free to. That's great. That's great. And you can then, if you have collaboration, can experience with your peers, with other gamers that are excited about what you build experience and test.

And instead of releasing your game, one game every three years, you release it every once every year or once every six month. And you just focus on building cool mechanics, building cool design. You have another way of monetizing your game and it's, it can become super interesting and super. , there's no, there's no such thing.

The, the, the mobile gaming creativity is incredibly out of reach for PC gaming creativity. PC gaming is focusing on longer games, bigger games, same with console that tell stories that, that are super good looking immersive, et cetera, but cost crazy amount of money to make and yeah, and, and, and are very super hard to If you don't have a big audience, if you don't have big money to back that up with crazy marketing, you will fail.

Yeah. And you won't lose money.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. And for, to back to backtrack into, you as, as a founder yourself, and you were investment baking and, and, and then you've always kind of been in the gaming world. When did you first get introduced to, crypto and, and then when did you have the idea or see that there was just this growing push for influencing or having this te.

Now kind of, integrated into gaming and this whole universe and, and 2 billion people actively gaming. I'm sure there's probably more who are less, consistent with it. But there's a huge market of individuals here who are actively testing technologies and are, are very curious. It's like, it's like your perfect customer base because they always want new things.

They wanna break it and they want to tell you why it's. But they wanna improve it overall. Right. So what in particular, got you excited about crypto and, and and saw the push inspiration? .  

Antoine: So I started working in the investment banking in 2007. Mm-hmm. , I was introduced to the technology we currently use here engine that we are moving to moving to new heights with crypto and with other Back in 2011 with my co-founder Alex, who uh, and then I started working with. Because that engine, so that engine is used by EA on Star War Republic, X Max on Online. So MMO ppg. So it's a, it's an engine to make mmo pg I was introduced to that and the, the key component is collaborative collab.

It's an collaborative engine you can build with hundreds of people in the same engine. So then comes financial crisis. And I stick to, I stick to banking. I stick to banking. So that was just before I met Alex. Stick to banking. Mm-hmm. , going to private banking, still make good, good money even with the crisis.

And comes 2007. Talk about Bitcoin. Some friends of mine who are engineers software engineers. Talk about that with me, how this will solve everything. Good luck with that. We will take over banks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Good luck with that. I was still counting in billions in investment banking, so Yeah, no, with your little thing, fine.

So then you get, you get into the, the logic of that and you get into the functionalities and you get into, then you become a, you become a, a a Bitcoin, maximalist, even before Ethereum is around. So you get, you, you buy, you buy a few, and then you sell them because it reached like $300 and it's fine.

It's cool. Yeah. But then being a fi, being a a financial engineer sticking around in the world of crypto, you get, you get approached by, by projects who want your help on building financial models and token models. Et cetera. That makes sense. Make proper sense that are not scams that, that, that, that have, that have a good logic.

So then you build those models, you get a, you get, you get to know super good projects. Some, some good, some bad. But you get to work, you get to get into the details of how, how it works, how the, that tokenization of the economy works. And comes 2017, 18 and you have, you start to have projects that are into gaming, decentral.

Sandbox and and, or, or, and, and others that try to Okay. Have an approach to, to to decentralized gaming and decentralized ownership. Decentralized gaming is not a thing. It's not possible. Technically, you won't have decentralized servers hosting your game session. Don't, don't dream about it. It's, it's years in the future.

That's because of hardware, but decentralized ownership, decentralized ownership of experiences that you build, et cetera. So, and, and decentralized. Funding of games 3% of all game of all games that all game developments that start, finish 3%. Yeah. Alright. Wow. So, wow. And that's not, that's not successful games, that, games that successfully finish development 3%.

Okay. So it is, it is, it is crazy hard to make those games and crazy, hard to get funding. And you look at, you look at, at, at ICOs, you look at those token models and man, wouldn't that be a great model to fund games? We already always had that in mind with, with our engine to uh uh, Attract people and get them together and collaboratively build stuff and maybe fund that.

Yeah. Cause we have kick Kickstarter with Super Good and, and, and, and other, other platforms were great. Crowdfunding was great. And ICOs are the new crowdfunding. It's a, yeah, decent centralized economy. There's a lot of money that is invested in those projects. So then we looked at our engine and said, okay, how can we help?

How can we help this? How can we help these guys achieve what they are trying to achieve? We can bring massive mmo massive multiplayer capacities. We can bring in collaborate collaborative capacity and we can integrate in that engine. Blockchain technology and real will not do it.

Epic games will not do that Unity either. They're either owned by super big corporations or and or, or publicly listed. Don't dream about it. They want to get blockchain tomorrow. So we can do that. So we can bring proper decentralized economy. We can we can offer ownership. We can offer trustability, we can offer internal probability between games based on blockchain technology.

That's super cool. Let's. . So at the end of, at the end of 2021 mm-hmm. We mm-hmm. , we started, we started our fund funding around that. That ended about a year ago. And and then we started assembling the team that would take that engine that has been worked on by crazy cool engineers for 20 years. Yeah, to the next level, adding blockchain technology, improving that engine, et cetera.

So, yeah, that's the story behind it. So it's really to serve game developers and gamers to give them more. I'm an avid gamer. I don't make games. I play a ton of games. I, I try to play everything when I have time. I try to plea everything. I have great collections, steam that, because I buy everything when it's on, when it's on.

And don't, then don't play everything, but at least I don't finish everything. But I try to play a lot of stuff. Yeah. And I'm interested in new concepts, new mechanics new designs. That's, that's what I want to see. So we are trying to serve that, actually trying to serve me as a, as a gamer, I want, I just want more stuff.

I just want more stuff. If you can make a buck or two by playing it and being rewarded with, with tokens or with, with a, a different way of way to, to serve the economy of the, of the gaming industry, great, great bonus If I can own what I have and I can use it in different games. Oh shit. Super cool. So that's what we're trying to serve.

We're trying to serve the, the game developer to help them. To help them make game faster, cheaper and collaboratively. And also the gamer more games, please.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah, it's incredible to hear about the collaboration piece and yeah, you're right. There's been so many crowd. Surname here, crowdsource doing crowdfunding, crowd development.

And, and it really is the, the collaboration of people in masses that really helps push a lot of these things forward. Whether it's, you think about open source programming and with the benefit of that, especially with Chrome how, how, so tell us a little bit about the traction. How many people are, are actively developing?

How many people are wor are playing with the games that are being built on the, on the meta. Where are things now and what's exciting about this year and and the traction that you, you've been taking from last year?  

Antoine: So what we are currently doing, we are improving the engine the engine rendering piece.

So we are taking it to, to today standards because we, we'll always be lagging behind Unreal, obviously, because they are unreal and they do cool for realistic stuff. But what we are doing while we, while we invest in this, and it's a, it's a long road because it's a. Super complex piece of technology.

We also invest a lot in bringing the collaborative to the game developer. So we have that. Yeah. Within our game engine possibility to collaborate, we have about 850 projects on the development, on the engine. Yeah. We are trying to bring collaborative to also content creators, artists.

If you want to assemble a team, so we're building something that we call Meta xp. It's a platform where you will be able to connect with people who have the same interest, who want to make a game. You want to connect with a, an artist. You don't have an artist. You have just the idea of a game.

I need an artist, I need a game designer, I need a level designer. I need this, I need that. It's a platform to connect and to build. And to, and to achieve more. I, we, I just want more games, honestly. Just for my own pleasure playing more games. And that platform is allowing people to connect and to, and to and to build together.

So that is going to be released this year. And along with, with upgrades on the engine, also an IP IP tracking system that we are testing current. and a ton of other projects. I don't want to talk about everything but cause there, there are so many, so many projects. But basically just so you know, we are just trying to serve the game developer community, the content creator community, trying to give them ownership of what they do and help them find not clients, but people to collaborate with on cool projects.

But most important, the gamers, cause they want interesting games. I don't know if you've played with many crypto. . They're not good. They're not interesting. They're bland. I'm sorry. There's just the economy there. So you can make, you can make money. Great. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna spend time to try to make $50 a week.

It is interesting to, to, to, to pick part of the war population that is for, for whom it is. Interesting. It is. A way of, of living it is not to me, and the game are just not, not that interesting. So, yeah, we want, we want more interesting games, more interesting mechanics, interesting stories and interesting content.

That's what we're trying to, what, that's what we're trying to help be made and, and, and, and gather the committees of, of game developers and content creators. as, as a globally game game enthusiast and, and, and metaverse enthusiast to try to build collaboratively. Yeah.  

Julian: What are some of the biggest challenges that the MetaEngine faces today?

Antoine: The biggest challenge is, well, There's, there, there are so many misconceptions about Metaverse. So we try not to talk about too much about Metaverse because it gets confusing and we try to talk about multitude of experiences and to make, to make a point, because what we really want is more games, more things that are connected to, to each other.

Yeah. And it's, it has to start at some. Because it's not, I'm not gonna trust meta with my data. I'm not gonna play that. Have a look at the demo. Come on. Thank you. But no, thanks . I don't want vr, it's not ready yet. I have a, a, a multi thousands of dollars in investing in my pc. I don't have a VR headset.

I don't, that's not for me, but I want experiences. So really it's, it's trying to, trying to get to a point where we. Where we have enough collaboration happening. So more games come out of that, that attracts funding, that attracts investors, that attracts another crowd and the community. So we are building that community.

Currently, we're trying to educate people based on our knowledge of the gaming industry, our knowledge of how games are being made how engines are supposed to be made try to also get into the, into trying to solve. The interoperability problem between games is if you don't have that and you don't have a meta, You don't, if, if you cannot jump from decent land to sandbox, this is not a metaverse, you should be able to jump seamlessly from one to the other.

How do you solve that? We are working on technology that is solving that for other engines, for Unity and Unreal plus, plus other open source engines and, and trying to, trying to bring our knowledge to more, to more, to more, to more gamers, to more game developers. Yeah. As well. So these are the main, main challenges.

Also trying to Hiring people is super hard currently. Yeah. Just, I just looked at the, at the, at the amount of applications that we get on all, all the jobs, we job posts we have, it's it's super hard to filter. And I think o overall it's it's trying to when we're not affected by the crypto winter, Because we were not out there.

We don't have a token out. It's, it's, uh mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. just building. It's a good season to build. That's what we're doing. And we are, we are trying to educate, trying to create content that will educate. Yeah. We're trying to help and trying to provide a technology that, that helps.  

Julian: Yeah. If everything goes well, what's the long-term vision for MetaEngine?

Antoine: Long-term vision? Yeah, there are some some surprises that I, I i, I should not mention now related to the open source aspect of things cuz we really think that, going back to, to sandbox point of view on the open metaverse, we completely align ourselves on this, but we really think some really think some things have to change on how we.

How we tackle technological challenges. We need to stop collectively trying to reinvent the wheel over and over again. Mm-hmm. . And this also is one of the challenges and our long-term vision is well, , having thousands and thousands of mini games, mini experiences, stories being released.

Yeah. Every month, every year. So, whenever you jump on your computer, you switch on the metaverse, or you go into one game. Yeah. And then you can explore another thing. You can get called by a friend. Okay. Can you join? Can you join me in that game? I need to kill that. Okay. But I'm playing, playing paintball with in VR with friends.

Can, can you come? Yes. And just, just open the door? Yeah. Virtual door and you're there. That's long-term vision. That would be so cool. And then you kind of nod off and, and join, join friends in a, in a virtual cinema virtual movie, movie theater, and watch a cool movie and comment together. Oh, that's nice.

And, and have a beer. But stay at, but stay at home and enjoy that metaverse. I think that's where we are. The metaverse is trying to go connect you with people, let you enjoy that many experiences. More experiences. I think that's where we're trying to go and we're trying to set a, to set standards there.

It needs to be interpretable, it needs to be collaborative. It needs to be a communities that build games that build experiences because then it is relevant. You're not being served. Yeah. The same stuff over and over again by same corporations. .

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. I always like to ask this next question, not only for my audience, but for selfish reasons.

Whether it's early in your career or now, what books or people have influenced you the most?  

Antoine: I'm not much of a reader. I look, I, I read comic books and graphic novels, so, I'm a, I'm a I'm a redirect you to Mogus, um mm-hmm. that the great author. But , I'm not a big reader.

I recommend anybody in interested in, in financial markets to read the Hull H U L L. That's kind of our Bible. Yeah. But no, I'm not, not not much of a reader, but I. I'm trying to get inspired by games. That's what inspired me my whole life. Yeah. I remember very vividly experiences that I had, and not in multiplayer games, competitive games, although I still play rike.

I played that since, well, it was south Yeah. Back then. But I remember a very vividly experiences like shadow of theosis that secret of manna. And these drove my passion that, yeah. saved me from finance to get me into gaming and, and you live kind of living the dream of, of being in that industry and, and trying to help game developers make cool shit.

Yeah. Yeah. These, these were my, my early inspirations.  

Julian: Oh, that's amazing. And I always, I, this is a new question I, I've started to implement, but if you had more time in the day, what would you want to spend more time working on?  

Antoine: So we are a hundred percent remote company. . Mm-hmm. . I'm, I'm in the southwest of France with, and I've been working remotely for the past 10 plus years.

My co-founder Alex, is in Switzerland. We have people from India to anywhere in Europe up to San Diego and Los Angeles. Trying to get to know, . Yeah. And spend more time one on one with people instead of in meaningless group meetings. That, that I may intervene from time to time in.

That's what I would I would, I would spend more time on, yeah. Talking with people and getting to know them and getting to know what makes them tick and, and, and how I can help examine. I'm the co ceo, I'm not billing anything. Don't, don't, don't, don't mistake me for an engineer, . I'm here to serve my. , I'm here to serve them, to achieve great things.

So I'm, I just need to. What they need to succeed. Yeah. So that, that's what I would spend the most time on. And not administrative shit, like paying invoices and, and being on calls about this or that, that, that is not related to our business or to the success of the team. That's what I would do. And sleep more.

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know we mentioned, you said before the call you got two hours of sleep and you drank lots of coffee. But I appreciate Antoine, your energy for, for, being on this show and, and giving us the insights into gaming and where the future is gonna be and, and all the cool things that you're building.

And I love this idea of the collaboration. I think that's kind of, yeah, I think that one of the foundational philosophies of decentralized technology, and it seems like you're, you're using that philosophy and building something extremely cool on it. So, Antoine, I know we're at the end of the show here, and I always like to give our guests.

To let us know where to find you so we can support you, we can even work and, and play with the technology you're, you're using or you're building. Where can we find you? What are your LinkedIns, your Twitters, your Discord channels? Where can find you be a part of the mission?  

Antoine: You can reach out to us on, on metaengine.gg and find out more about the only game engine that allows you to collaborate real time. That's not, that's not a lie, that's not a commercial lie. It's been around for 20 years, so yeah, you can't trust that . So, yeah, please come and join the, please come and join the community. Have a look at what we do.

Try to read our articles. That's really there not to sell anything. Just here To educate. Yeah. To, to teach a bit more about we are going into a different, new, new articles that are going into more how to make games technically. Yeah. How to do that. What is required, what do you need to learn? And we're trying to build educational.

For, for the community. So then you get to have that maybe career path and, and instead of making TikTok videos, make games, , that would be so much more rewarding for, for everybody that would be great.  

Julian: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Antoine, for being on the show.

I hope you enjoyed yourself and and I hope to maybe even talk to you again on, on Behind Company Lines. But thank you again for being on the show.  

Antoine: Thank you very much Julian. That was a pleasure and looking forward to, talking to you again.  

Julian: Love that.